Islam ?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
ryanbouma
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Islam ?

#1

Post by ryanbouma » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:29 pm

I've been thinking a lot about how God will judge other relegions, particularly muslims. It's difficult to understand how He'll do this for muslims who have grown up totally envoloped in the religion. I started thinking, I'm like that with Christianity. It's been around me my whole life. So even though I was confident Jesus is the way, I wanted to show myself there is no other way. Otherwise I'm no different than the muslim who grows up in islamic tradition and dies and faces judgement.

I took relegious studies while in school. And I've tried reading the Koran. But it's quite a difficult read, and it's supposed to be read in arabaic. So I did a little bit of researching around on the internet and I've become very confused. Some of the things muslims claim about islam seem way off and very wrong. However, I'm not so sure the Koran actually says these things. Furthermore, I'm not so sure the Koran is all that self-contradictory.

Based on what I've managed to pull together, I see that Islam has many problems. I'm amazed muslims don't see it that way. Regardless, I'd appreciate feedback on what makes Islam a false religion. Thanks.

PS. I wasn't sure what forum to put this in. Hopefully this is the proper place. Thanks.

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Re: Islam ?

#2

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:51 pm

ryanbouma wrote:I've been thinking a lot about how God will judge other relegions, particularly muslims. It's difficult to understand how He'll do this for muslims who have grown up totally envoloped in the religion. I started thinking, I'm like that with Christianity. It's been around me my whole life. So even though I was confident Jesus is the way, I wanted to show myself there is no other way. Otherwise I'm no different than the muslim who grows up in islamic tradition and dies and faces judgement.
If you are a nominal Christian, then Islam or Buddhism or atheism is just as good as what you have; you'll end up in the same place after death as those who have these other faiths/religions.

For more information on Islam, consider this ministry which reaches out to the first victims of Islam, Muslims themselves:

www.fortressoffaith.org

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Islam ?

#3

Post by Philip » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:17 pm

Knowing of the enormous hostility to Christians and the Bible across the Muslim world, it is somewhat strange, given the amazing things that the Quran has to say about Jesus, The Gospel and The Torah:

Let’s review the evidence of what the QURAN says about Jesus and the Bible:

The QURAN says the BIBLE IS GOD'S PREVIOUS WORD TO MAN (Sura 2:136; 4:163):

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (Sura 2:136)

"Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms]." (Sura 4:163)

And the Quran also says that NO ONE CAN CHANGE GOD'S WORD (Sura 6:115; also 6:34; 10:64):

"And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." (Sura 6:115)

"And certainly were messengers denied before you, but they were patient over [the effects of] denial, and they were harmed until Our victory came to them. And none can alter the words of Allah. And there has certainly come to you some information about the [previous] messengers." (Sura 6:34)

"For them are good tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. No change is there in the words of Allah. That is what is the great attainment." (Sura 10:64)

Scholars and many old Bible manuscripts reveal that the contents of the Bible available in Muhammad's time (570 - 632 A.D.) are nearly identical to those of today's Bible. And the Bible of Muhammad's time, the one endorsed by the Quran, says that Jesus was not just a prophet because He ACCEPTED WORSHIP as GOD (Matthew 8:2; 14:33; 28:9; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; 20:28-29).

Why believe Muhammad is superior to Jesus when even the QURAN says that Jesus WAS SINLESS: (Sura 3:45-46; 19;19-21), that He was born of a virgin (Sura 3:47), was called the Messiah (Sura 3:45), that He performed miracles, like raising of the dead (Sura 5:110), and that He bodily ascended into heaven (Sura 4:158), and yet Muhammad DID NONE OF THESE THINGS? The Quran confirms the Bible of Muhammad's time to be God's word, and in it we see that it says that Jesus NEVER sinned even once. Yet the Quran says MUHAMMAD sinned (Quran 40:55; 48:1-2).

The Quran claims the Torah and the Gospel are true and are from ALAH! It also says that He did miracles:

"[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic." (Sura 5:110)

And so we see that the Quran of Muhammad's time (570 - 632 A.D.) tells us that the Bible is God's unchangeable Word to man, and in the Bible of that time (almost identical to today's Bible), it also tells us that Jesus accepted worship as God and that He was sinless. And yet the Quran tells us that Muhammad sinned.

And for anyone to say that the Bible of Muhammad's time is false -- well, take a look at what the scholars say about the Bible version that circulated during Muhammad's time, and also look at what the Quran says about Jesus. And what it says is so startling that one wonders how much of the Quran has most Muslims actually read.

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Re: Islam ?

#4

Post by ryanbouma » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:43 pm

FL, thanks for the resource. I'll check it out right after this post. One question though. Your first thought about nominal Christians is startling and intriguing. Could you explain this more to me? And maybe describe to me what you consider a nominal Christian. Obviously you believe a nominal Christian is not saved. Are you refering to God separating the goats from the sheep? I've thought God does that while we're alive. For instance, when someone professes Jesus as their saviour, but when they fall on hard times they doubt and wander from their faith... Maybe that isn't what you're referring to.

Philip, thanks so much for those references and thoughts. You've made me come full circle in my thinking. You see, when I took my religeous studies courses in school, I wondered if Muhammad really did receive prophecy from Gabriel, but his words have been twisted and Islam has become something it wasn't meant to be. Of course, I'm totally speculating and only basing this on the fact that Islam is an Abrahamic religion among a few other things. But my research (a single book about Islam and some googling) has led me to believe their truly anti-Christ. They claim Jesus was a prophet the same as Muhammad. But they condemn the trinity, etc. But the passages of the Quran you note, and the historical notes also, take me back to wondering if Muhammad intended to endorse Jesus as the messiah or what...? Is it possible Muhhamad was a prophet of the true God we Christian recognize? Did he really receive a vision from Gabriel and twist the message...?




I think the principle failing of Islam is that it's founded on works. God by nature (even the God Islam claims) cannot accept any sin in his presence, yet Islam teaches paradise is attained by good deeds outweighing sin. This is a contradiction. Am I right?

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Re: Islam ?

#5

Post by Philip » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:32 pm

Is it possible Muhammad was a prophet of the true God we Christian recognize? Did he really receive a vision from Gabriel and twist the message...?
Ryan, not a chance! I only posted to show the massive contradictions - that the Qur'an itself endorses the Bible and acknowledges Jesus to be sinless whilst Muhammad was not, that Jesus did miracles, but not Muhammad. Of course, this does not mean that this knowledge came from Allah (via Muhammad).

Muhammad asserted that the verses of the Qur'an were revealed to him by God through the archangel Gabriel, on many occasions between 610 CE until his death in 632 AD. While he was alive, all of his supposed revelations were written down by his companions, although it is said that the prime method of transmission was orally, through memorization.

That the Qur'an denies Jesus is God, even denies He was crucified, much less resurrected, shows that it is a false book of lies that is in opposition to the Bible - God's ONLY revealed word to mankind. Further, Muhammad, likely demonically inspired, is the source of the Qua-ran and it's inspiration of tremendous hatred of Christians and Jews. Islam was spread principally by the sword ("Convert or ELSE!"). If you think about it, what better way to gain acceptance of one's supposed holy messages from "god," than to build upon an ancient belief and long-established belief/faith (the OT and Christianity). Remember, Muhammad came up with his supposed revelations a full six centuries after Christ. So He took what was already widely believed and accepted, and yet distorted it and added to it with a wide litany of lies and wrongful beliefs. Many familiar figures in the Bible are also mentioned in the Qua-ran, albeit with often far different details and outright distortions. Is it any wonder that Islam is at the heart of such hatred of Christians and the Bible? And who do radical Muslims hate the most? God's chosen people, the Jews (think that's a coincidence?).

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Re: Islam ?

#6

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:39 pm

ryanbouma wrote:FL, thanks for the resource. I'll check it out right after this post. One question though. Your first thought about nominal Christians is startling and intriguing. Could you explain this more to me? And maybe describe to me what you consider a nominal Christian. Obviously you believe a nominal Christian is not saved. Are you refering to God separating the goats from the sheep? I've thought God does that while we're alive. For instance, when someone professes Jesus as their saviour, but when they fall on hard times they doubt and wander from their faith... Maybe that isn't what you're referring to.
First, read these definitions from Merriam Webster's Third New International Dictionary:

Religion, the body of institutionalized expressions of sacred beliefs, observances and practices found within a given cultural context.

Faith, firm or unquestioning belief in something for which there is no proof; firm or unquestioning trust or confidence in the value, power, or efficacy of something.

A nominal Christian is one who is so in name only. They may have the outward appearance and know the lingo of Christianity but have no saving faith. They may worship often and do good deeds but they have never been born of the Spirit. They are spiritually dead, whitewashed tombs, dead to God and still in bondage to the flesh.

I would guess that most people sitting in church pews today would be nominal Christians. These people put their faith in a religion rather than in God. These are the people who come to this site and say things like, ''I used to be a Christian but after looking into it, I am now an atheist/Buddhist/agnostic/et cetera.'' No one who is truly born of the Spirit could ever make such a statement.

As for ''falling on hard times,'' this is guaranteed by Scripture. False Christianity promises health, wealth and a new car to the faithful but God promises trouble. God uses hard times to strengthen the faith of those who have been justified. So, while my faith may wane under a trial, in the end it will be stronger.

The sheep and the goat thing (Mt 25:31+) has nothing to do with this discussion. Indeed, it has yet to occur.

To sum up, when I said this,
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:If you are a nominal Christian, then Islam or Buddhism or atheism is just as good as what you have; you'll end up in the same place after death as those who have these other faiths/religions.
...I meant that any religion is just as useless as any other as far as your salvation is concerned. All religions have a propensity to legality. The unregenerate mind understands this legality as ''If I do more good deeds than bad deeds, God will be happy with me.'' Nothing could be further from the truth as it is revealed in Scripture.

So...what do you think of Philip' posts?

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Islam ?

#7

Post by Philip » Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:56 pm

FL, I have to admit that when I discovered what the Qur'an says about Jesus, and concerning key parts of the OT and The Gospel - actually endorsing key parts of the Bible to be not only true, but informing us that they had been given by Allah himself - well, I was shocked. And to realize that the Islamists, particularly, hate all things Christian as well as the Bible. But then we find in their own book that it was revealed to Muhammad that words given through the OT, to Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, along with his words to Job, Jonah, Aaron, Solomon, and to David, many key elements of Jesus' ministry, and The Gospel were given by ALLAH. But, of course, the Qu'ran also distorts, changes and contradicts much of what is in the Biblical accounts, spinning them to the desires of Muhammad and his sinister agenda. Still, quite astonishing, given the hypocritical agenda and hatred of all things Jewish and Christian of many of today's Muslims.
Last edited by Philip on Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Islam ?

#8

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:01 am

Philip wrote:FL, I have to admit that when I discovered what the Qu'ran says about Jesus, and concerning key parts of the OT and The Gospel - actually endorsing key parts of the Bible to be not only true, but informing us that they had been given by Allah himself - well, I was shocked.
OK...just remember that Allah is not YHWH, God as revealed in the Bible. I'm sure you know this but I write it for the benefit of others who may be reading.
Philip wrote:the Qu'ran also distorts, changes and contradicts much of what is in the Biblical accounts, spinning them to the desires of Muhammad and his sinister agenda. Still, quite astonishing, given the hypocritical agenda and hatred of all things Jewish and Christian of many of today's Muslims.
Most Muslims I've met have no more knowledge of what is in the Qu'ran than the average Christian has about what's in the Bible. For this we can be thankful to God because the Qu'ran prescribes violence against non Muslims. We don't really need more scriptural Muslims around!

For those of us who live where Muslims have moved to en masse, the future doesn't look bright. Along with their tasty food, they have brought their hijabs, chadors, niqabs, burquas, djellabas and assorted pyjama-like clothing. They are changing the character of business by their ways, they are changing the architecture by their mosques, they are changing the ''feel'' of neighborhoods where they have chosen to ghettoize, and so on.

On the bright side, Muslim immigration has allowed them to be exposed to Christianity and to the Bible. They would have never had this opportunity in their repressive homelands where to abandon Islam carries a death sentence. I thank God for those ministries that work with Muslims to show them the true God.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Islam ?

#9

Post by Thadeyus » Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:22 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:OK...just remember that Allah is not YHWH, God as revealed in the Bible. I'm sure you know this but I write it for the benefit of others who may be reading.

FL
Okay...colour me intrigued...

What,then, is Allah...? I always thought it was just a foreign name for god. Much like 'white' is 'weiß' in German, or 'bianco' in Italian.

Much cheers to all.

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Re: Islam ?

#10

Post by Philip » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:22 pm

It is possible, but uncertain, that Allah is actually a real, demonic/Satanic entity. Whatever the case, Islam is certainly a powerful tool of Satan!

That Islam isn't a religion of peace is quite apparent. If you look up the chapter of the Qur'an, called Taubah (which means "Ultimatum"), you will find it says a great deal about non-Muslims. Here are a few choice verses:


9:5 Slay the idolaters wherever you find them.

9:6 Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.)

9:7-9 Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted.

9:11 Treat converts to Islam well, but kill those who refuse to convert (see 9:5).

9:12-14 Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory.

9:23 Don't make friends with your disbelieving family members. Those who do so are wrong-doers.

9:29 Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low."

9:33 The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions.

9:41 Fight for Allah with your wealth and whatever weapons are available to you.

9:42 Those who refuse to fight for Allah (claiming they are unable) are liars who have destroyed their souls.

9:73 Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway.

9:81-83 Those who refuse to give their wealth and lives to Allah will face the fire of hell.

9:85 Those who refuse to fight for Allah will be treated (along with their children) as unbelievers.

9:111 Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed. Allah will reward them for it.

9:123 Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you.

And so, yes, it is a tremendous blessing that more Muslims don't well know their own "holy" book, so as to take its blood-soaked teachings to heart. The truest of Muslims take what the Qur'an says for truth. A so-called "MODERATE Muslim" may be much more peaceful and less dangerous, but the term itself is actually an oxymoron!
Last edited by Philip on Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Islam ?

#11

Post by 1over137 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:17 pm

What a contrast to Christian Bible. Many verses came into my head which are such a contrast.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Islam ?

#12

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:46 pm

Thadeyus wrote:What,then, is Allah...? I always thought it was just a foreign name for god. Much like 'white' is 'weiß' in German, or 'bianco' in Italian.
The Allah we are discussing is the god of Islam, the god of the Qur'an. ''Allah'' is also an arabic word for ''god''. When used in another language than Arabic, Allah clearly denotes the god of Islam:

Allah est le dieu des musulmans. (French) El dios de los musulmanes se llama Allah. (Spanish)*

Get it?

FL y:-B

*actually, Allah the proper name is written Alà in Spanish, but with the accent in the other direction. I don't have a Spanish keyboard.
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Islam ?

#13

Post by Thadeyus » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:02 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:The Allah we are discussing is the god of Islam, the god of the Qur'an. ''Allah'' is also an arabic word for ''god''. When used in another language than Arabic, Allah clearly denotes the god of Islam:

Allah est le dieu des musulmans. (French) El dios de los musulmanes se llama Allah. (Spanish)*

Get it?

FL y:-B

*actually, Allah the proper name is written Alà in Spanish, but with the accent in the other direction. I don't have a Spanish keyboard.
*Nods* Yup, totally agree and understand........Which is what I think i said?

Much cheers to all.

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Re: Islam ?

#14

Post by Byblos » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:46 am

God as revealed by the Bible is love, an 'attribute' completely absent in the Qur'an. Therefore the god worshiped by Islam is most definitely NOT the God of the Bible. Case closed.
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Re: Islam ?

#15

Post by ryanbouma » Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:57 pm

Sorry for the late reply. Had some internet problems.

Thanks for all the info so far. I've been doing some research and I'm starting to see that Islam is a fairly violent religion.

FL, I see what you mean by nominal Christian. I've met some of those. I would be surprised if more than half of church congregations were not saved by salvation. But perhaps I'm naive. I mean, speaker from experience, salvation has always been taught thoroughly in the churches I've attended. I'm not sure how someone could do all the "religious" parts of Christianity without realizing it's about faith in Jesus.

I have a couple questions for all.

1. Is it possible Gabriel really did visit Muhammud and then demons attacked, or he let his sin pervert the message of God? Or do most Christians think it was either totally made up or a demon right from the get go?

2. Is it possible for a Muslim to be saved? Like this,,, a Muslim grows up in Iran or some really Muslim dominated culture. They know nothing else. But they believe in their heart, the only way for Allah to save them is by grace. Would God view that as salvation by grace? Consider in the book of Acts when Paul went to Athens and saw an alter that said "the unknown God". Paul said the people who have worshiped this god were saved but now that I've told you about Jesus, you're accountable to Jesus. I'm paraphrasing and hopefully have it straight.

I know these should be straight forward questions, but I really want to get down to the nitty gritty about other religions. I've never been in those situations, maybe it should be obvious to people who don't grow up in a Christian environment that Jesus is the way.

Thanks.

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