Fundamentals of Science

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#46

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:39 am

Audie wrote:My last q. has much to do with who might benefit from baby
sreps!

On what basis do you say phil.is essential to science?
Science is interpreted based on philosophical Points of view.
Without philosophy, there is no reason because there is no method to INTERPRET results.

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#47

Post by Byblos » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:48 am

Audie wrote:My last q. has much to do with who might benefit from baby
sreps!

On what basis do you say phil.is essential to science?
Audie, philosophy is the study of logic. What does science mean without logic? You tell me.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#48

Post by Audie » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:05 am

Byblos wrote:
Audie wrote:My last q. has much to do with who might benefit from baby
sreps!

On what basis do you say phil.is essential to science?
Audie, philosophy is the study of logic. What does science mean without logic? You tell me.
Hmm, does logic need philosophy, or does philosophy need logic same
as math and science do?

There was no mention of philosophy in any science class I ever took, tho I did find that
the one phil. class I took was most helpful for the logic section of the lsat.

You mentioned scientific proof earlier. What did you mean by that?

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#49

Post by Audie » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:15 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:My last q. has much to do with who might benefit from baby
sreps!

On what basis do you say phil.is essential to science?
Science is interpreted based on philosophical Points of view.
Without philosophy, there is no reason because there is no method to INTERPRET results.
Maybe this is just about what one thinks of as "philosophy".

I've no idea what phil. pov one applies to interpretation of data.

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#50

Post by 1over137 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:17 am

Audie wrote:To me proof can be done in math only.
Ok, here is a try:

0 != something :mrgreen:
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#51

Post by Audie » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:20 am

1over137 wrote:
Audie wrote:To me proof can be done in math only.
Ok, here is a try:

0 != something :mrgreen:
Sheesh, at least let me know if you went over my head
with that!

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#52

Post by Byblos » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:28 am

Audie wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Audie wrote:My last q. has much to do with who might benefit from baby
sreps!

On what basis do you say phil.is essential to science?
Audie, philosophy is the study of logic. What does science mean without logic? You tell me.
Hmm, does logic need philosophy, or does philosophy need logic same
as math and science do?
As I said, philosphy is the study of logic. You simply cannot divroce science from philosophy.
Audie wrote:There was no mention of philosophy in any science class I ever took, tho I did find that
the one phil. class I took was most helpful for the logic section of the lsat.
Of course, one can study any branch of the sciences without studying the fundamentals. It certainly doesn't mean they are disconnected or unrelated.
Audie wrote:You mentioned scientific proof earlier. What did you mean by that?
I mentioned philosophical proof and scientific evidence. Big difference. But before we get to the scientific evidence I was hoping to tackle the philosophical proof first. If you're not interested in that we can certainly jump to the scientific evidence.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#53

Post by 1over137 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:47 am

Audie wrote:
1over137 wrote:
Audie wrote:To me proof can be done in math only.
Ok, here is a try:

0 != something :mrgreen:
Sheesh, at least let me know if you went over my head
with that!
I had to look that idiom up
go over somebody's head
1. to talk to or deal with someone's boss without talking to them first I really don't want to go over her head but if she won't listen to me I have no choice.
2. if a piece of information goes over someone's head, they do not understand it The bit about tax went straight over my head - was it important?

I just said that there is something rather then nothing.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#54

Post by Audie » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:58 am

Byblos wrote:
Audie wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Audie wrote:My last q. has much to do with who might benefit from baby
sreps!

On what basis do you say phil.is essential to science?
Audie, philosophy is the study of logic. What does science mean without logic? You tell me.
Hmm, does logic need philosophy, or does philosophy need logic same
as math and science do?
As I said, philosphy is the study of logic. You simply cannot divroce science from philosophy.
Audie wrote:There was no mention of philosophy in any science class I ever took, tho I did find that
the one phil. class I took was most helpful for the logic section of the lsat.
Of course, one can study any branch of the sciences without studying the fundamentals. It certainly doesn't mean they are disconnected or unrelated.
Audie wrote:You mentioned scientific proof earlier. What did you mean by that?
I mentioned philosophical proof and scientific evidence. Big difference. But before we get to the scientific evidence I was hoping to tackle the philosophical proof first. If you're not interested in that we can certainly jump to the scientific evidence.
.

A few posts back you said " scientific proofs"

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#55

Post by Audie » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:01 am

1over137 wrote:
Audie wrote:
1over137 wrote:
Audie wrote:To me proof can be done in math only.
Ok, here is a try:

0 != something :mrgreen:
Sheesh, at least let me know if you went over my head
with that!
I had to look that idiom up
go over somebody's head
1. to talk to or deal with someone's boss without talking to them first I really don't want to go over her head but if she won't listen to me I have no choice.
2. if a piece of information goes over someone's head, they do not understand it The bit about tax went straight over my head - was it important?

I just said that there is something rather then nothing.
ok..so...? If we are on a topic i dont know what it is.

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#56

Post by 1over137 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:11 pm

Audie wrote:
1over137 wrote:
Audie wrote:
1over137 wrote:
Audie wrote:To me proof can be done in math only.
Ok, here is a try:

0 != something :mrgreen:
Sheesh, at least let me know if you went over my head
with that!
I had to look that idiom up
go over somebody's head
1. to talk to or deal with someone's boss without talking to them first I really don't want to go over her head but if she won't listen to me I have no choice.
2. if a piece of information goes over someone's head, they do not understand it The bit about tax went straight over my head - was it important?

I just said that there is something rather then nothing.
ok..so...? If we are on a topic i dont know what it is.
Byblos said: "From reason alone we can prove the existance of a timeless, immaterial, omniscient, omnipotent first mover."
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#57

Post by FlawedIntellect » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:19 pm

Audie wrote:
1over137 wrote:
Audie wrote:
1over137 wrote:
Audie wrote:To me proof can be done in math only.
Ok, here is a try:

0 != something :mrgreen:
Sheesh, at least let me know if you went over my head
with that!
I had to look that idiom up
go over somebody's head
1. to talk to or deal with someone's boss without talking to them first I really don't want to go over her head but if she won't listen to me I have no choice.
2. if a piece of information goes over someone's head, they do not understand it The bit about tax went straight over my head - was it important?

I just said that there is something rather then nothing.
ok..so...? If we are on a topic i dont know what it is.
Did you even bother to read my post that stated that science is founded in philosophic principles, or pay any attention to my explanation on why?

Also, to explain 1/137's explanation, it's a programming reference. (Programming involves quite a bit of math.) "!" in some programming languages usually denotes "NOT" as a mathematical principle. (I'm not a programmer, but I've done some silly stuff in variants of "MUSHcode").

Go back and read 1/137's post, reading the "!" in the equation as "does not".

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#58

Post by Byblos » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:34 pm

Audie wrote:A few posts back you said " scientific proofs"
Yes, I said the words 'scientific proofs' but not in the context of proofs for God's existance. I will quote myself:
Byblos wrote:If you don't think phylosophical proofs are possible then you've just singlehandedly dismantled every rational argument ever made. And that includes scientific proofs.
I think the contaxt is clear what I am referring to are general scientific proofs (e.g. mathematical proofs).


In any case, we can go in either direction, philosophy (proof) or science (evidence). Your preference.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#59

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:36 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Audie wrote:I dont see how it can be the same kind of faith, when you can do the one based on very concrete facts and repeatable tests, and the other is based on.....?

What reality is it that one comprehends, in a religious belief?
Prove to me that Positivism is true based upon your same criteria for justification.
Audie wrote:Prove to me that it is possible to determine what is inside a brick.
That sounds a bit childish to me.

My question is a valid question and is often asked of those who hold to Positivism like you appear to advocate when you asked for "concrete facts and repeatable tests."

It is interesting that many who believe that science can only provide true knowledge, appear to say silly things like Philosophy is dead and not needed (e.g., Hawking, Dawkins, Krauss).

Their theory of knowledge, and justified belief, is a philosophical stance. Indeed, the scientific pursuit is steeped in philosophy of how science functions and should work. The syllogisms in ruling out scientific theories based upon tests, our reasoning ability and rational facilities that are often unquestionably accepted, even belong foundationally within Philosophy itself.

So if you wish to also support these philosophically blind secular scientists, then prove that your "scientific" methods of determining truth are absolute and do not require faith. For example, what do you mean by "concrete facts"? And if all justified knowledge is only that which can be repeated in tests then on what grounds do you accept that very position (Positivism) itself as being justified?

You can either make yourself look more silly by asking me to again prove what is inside a brick, or you can actually try and provide a well-thought out response.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Fundamentals of Science

#60

Post by Audie » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:00 am

Byblos wrote:
Audie wrote:A few posts back you said " scientific proofs"
Yes, I said the words 'scientific proofs' but not in the context of proofs for God's existance. I will quote myself:
Byblos wrote:If you don't think phylosophical proofs are possible then you've just singlehandedly dismantled every rational argument ever made. And that includes scientific proofs.
I think the contaxt is clear what I am referring to are general scientific proofs (e.g. mathematical proofs).


In any case, we can go in either direction, philosophy (proof) or science (evidence). Your preference.
I never heard of a "general scientific proof", math in not science, and it is my understanding that science does not "do" proof, so, I really dont know where you are coming from in this.

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