Religion vs. Science?

[Lunalle]

Actually, love does bear all things, including leaving an abusive spouse.
You can't decide for YOURSELF what something means to YOU and then decide that must mean the same thing for everyone.
To bear all things means to deal with all that life hands you with love, not hate, not anger, not anything but love.

Right, I can't do that, and neither can you. However, there is a governing body that does do that, for the reason of efficient communication. So I completely reject you deciding for YOURSELF what love means to YOU and deciding it applies to me.

Governing Body? Are you a JW or former JW ??

I want to see this question answered.

If you don't want to answer the question, that is ok but you could just say that instead of ignoring it.

I've already answered it.

I've tried various religions, but JWs were not one of them.

To clarify:
I have never been a Jehovah's Witness.

[Lunalle]

"Love bears all things." That is not a redefinition (or at least a refinement of the definition) of love? Wow, well, uh... the noun is "love", the verb is "bears", the adverb is "things", and the emphasizing adverb is "all". So this is a claim of what love does. Love bears all things. It is also incoherent if taken literally.

I am lost in what you are trying to convey, we gave you the Christian definition of love which was 1 Corinthians 13:1-13

Love to the Christian is an action and not some warm fuzzy feeling chemical reactions in the brain.

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

So please explain from the above how love says to but up with being abused.

Hey Dan,

Things are all over the place here. As far as I can determine, some people follow the Bible completely, some follow the Bible selectively, some don't follow the Bible at all. It is hard to make a valid point!

I think the point of your post is that we should measure love by action. I agree that would be our most efficient method at this point in time.

I don't want to cherry pick, but I think this is the relevant bit:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.

If someone beats you, is it patient and kind to defend yourself? Is this honoring to your abuser? Is it self seeking to defend yourself? If you keep no record of wrong, why would you "not put up" with being abused? It says keep no record, and always protect.

Like most advice from the Bible (when taken literal), this is self deprecating. My point is the same point about faith. Too little is bad, and too much is bad. You should love others, yes... but not that much. This encourages an attitude of submissiveness to those who would take advantage of you. It encourages you to let others continue to abuse you. This is an example of blaming the victim, and that is a terrible thing. Love others, but balance it with self respect. You are a human, a member of the most advanced social species on this planet. Respect yourself as you deserve!

I hope this is clear.

[Danieltwotwenty]

If someone beats you, is it patient and kind to defend yourself?

Yes, how is defending yourself not being patient, don't forget you have to love yourself also.

Is this honoring to your abuser?

Yes because if you let them perpetuate their actions you are letting them harm themselves with sin.

Is it self seeking to defend yourself?

No, because you have to love yourself also.

If you keep no record of wrong, why would you "not put up" with being abused?

Keeping a record of wrong would be to hate them because of it, you can still love them and not put up with their abuse. You can forgive someone's actions without condoning said action.

You should love others, yes... but not that much.

Your understanding of Christian love is flawed.

Like most advice from the Bible (when taken literal), this is self deprecating.

No it's not, it is only your understanding/interpretation of Biblical love that is self deprecating.

This encourages an attitude of submissiveness to those who would take advantage of you. It encourages you to let others continue to abuse you. This is an example of blaming the victim, and that is a terrible thing. Love others, but balance it with self respect. You are a human, a member of the most advanced social species on this planet. Respect yourself as you deserve!

The Bible teaches us to respect ourselves and even to love ourselves, that verse is not the only one on love, there are plenty of other that teach us about self respect, self love etc..

Unlike you we don't just read one part of the Bible (cherry picking) and apply it, we take a holistic approach and take lessons from many parts and apply the over all theme.

To clarify:
I have never been a Jehovah's Witness.

My apologies I must have missed it.

[Lunalle]

The Bible teaches us to respect ourselves and even to love ourselves, that verse is not the only one on love, there are plenty of other that teach us about self respect, self love etc..

Unlike you we don't just read one part of the Bible (cherry picking) and apply it, we take a holistic approach and take lessons from many parts and apply the over all theme.

I believe we're saying the same thing. I have read the entire Bible (cover to cover), multiple times. I'm glad you take a holistic approach, that is better than taking a literal approach. The approach I took (and encourage) is to be a humanitarian similar to Jesus. Read the Bible, get the basic moral principles, then build on them based on our improved society, and ditch the baggage.

[Danieltwotwenty]

I believe we're saying the same thing. I have read the entire Bible (cover to cover), multiple times.

I don't think we are saying the same thing at all,there are similarities but there are also some huge differences. You may have read it but you seem to not understand it very well. Reading does not = understanding.

I'm glad you take a holistic approach, that is better than taking a literal approach.

I do take a literal approach, the Bible literally means what it says in it's proper context using good exegetical processes.

The approach I took (and encourage) is to be a humanitarian similar to Jesus. Read the Bible, get the basic moral principles, then build on them based on our improved society, and ditch the baggage.

There is no baggage, I would say your understanding of it is the baggage that you speak of.

Dan

[Danieltwotwenty]

Really? What do you consider yourselves? I think people here have interesting ideas of labels. This is kind of humorous to me.

I do apologize I missed this one in my last post, I consider myself a normal person living life, I don't do this for a living and I am not trying to defend what I believe. I am happy to discuss what I believe but I don't really feel the need to build a defense for it, I am quite comfortable with everything I believe.

[Lunalle]

Really? What do you consider yourselves? I think people here have interesting ideas of labels. This is kind of humorous to me.

I do apologize I missed this one in my last post, I consider myself a normal person living life, I don't do this for a living and I am not trying to defend what I believe. I am happy to discuss what I believe but I don't really feel the need to build a defense for it, I am quite comfortable with everything I believe.

Huh, okay. Well I consider myself a person (not quite normal, but close) living life too. The root of my challenging people's faith is the critical thinking process behind their faith. You may not, but I expect you do this for a living. Not in the sense you make money from it, but in the sense that you apply your critical thinking process to various situations on a daily basis (although perhaps only subconsciously). Another point I try desperately to have people agree with is that comfort is a measure of emotion, not a measure of accuracy, efficiency, or "correctness".

Cheers!