Atheism: Belief or Position?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.

Is atheism a belief?

Yes
15
68%
No
5
23%
May be
2
9%
 
Total votes: 22

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1over137
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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#106

Post by 1over137 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:20 pm

You are Kenny, I am me, neo is neo, dan is dan and that's it.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#107

Post by RickD » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:55 am

kenny wrote:
Besides, Atheism and Theism is about what you believe, Agnostic is about what you know; a completely different question.
Kenny,

You do realize what agnostic means, don't you?
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
An agnostic believes...
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#108

Post by Kenny » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:44 am

RickD wrote:
kenny wrote:
Besides, Atheism and Theism is about what you believe, Agnostic is about what you know; a completely different question.
Kenny,

You do realize what agnostic means, don't you?
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
An agnostic believes...
Faith is about believing; disbelief is about not believing, and agnostic is about what you know. Even the definition you provided says it is about what is known.

Ken
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"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#109

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:21 am

Agnosticism is the belief or position that knowledge about the existence of God is impossible. It is a belief about knowledge concerning God. It follows from the nature of agnosticism that agnostics don't know whether God exists or not, but not knowing whether God exists and not having any beliefs about His existence isn't enough to make a person an agnostic. In other words, agnosticism is not about whether you know God exists as in theism or know He does not exist as in atheism. It's about what you believe can in principle be known about His existence. It is not, then, ignorance, as if it were a mediate position between theism and atheism. On the contrary, it is an intellectually grounded position. It says, "I know that given the nature of the question, God's existence cannot be demonstrated rationally."

This might clarify thing a bit:
  • 1. Can God's existence be known?
    a) Yes - see q.2
    b) No - you are an agnostic
    2. Does God exist?
    a) Yes - see q.3
    b) No - you are an atheist
    3. Is God distinct from creation?
    a) Yes - see q.4
    b) No - You are a pantheist
    4. Does God involve Himself with His creation? That is, is God working to bring creation to a particular goal or end?
    a) Yes - You are a theist
    b) No - You are a deist
This is a bit simplified, but it should make the relationship between agnosticism, theism, atheism, belief, and knowledge all rather clear.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#110

Post by Kenny » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:48 am

[quote="Jac3510"]Agnosticism is the belief or position that knowledge about the existence of God is impossible. It is a belief about knowledge concerning God. It follows from the nature of agnosticism that agnostics don't know whether God exists or not, but not knowing whether God exists and not having any beliefs about His existence isn't enough to make a person an agnostic. In other words, agnosticism is not about whether you know God exists as in theism or know He does not exist as in atheism. It's about what you believe can in principle be known about His existence. It is not, then, ignorance, as if it were a mediate position between theism and atheism. On the contrary, it is an intellectually grounded position. It says, "I know that given the nature of the question, God's existence cannot be demonstrated rationally."

This might clarify thing a bit:
  • 1. Can God's existence be known?
    a) Yes - see q.2
    b) No - you are an agnostic


    In order to answer this question, the person asking must first define what they mean by God
    If God is a tree, obviously his existence is know. If God is something akin to the God described in the Bible, Koran, Vedas, etc. your answer may be a little different.


    2. Does God exist?
    a) Yes - see q.3
    b) No - you are an atheist

    Again it depends on who you call God! If your God is a tree; of course he exists! If something else; maybe, maybe not!

    3. Is God distinct from creation?
    a) Yes - see q.4
    b) No - You are a pantheist

    I think it depends on how you define creation. If you define it as to make something from nothing, not everybody agrees this has ever happened. If you describe it as making something from existing materials; then you will need to describe your idea of God.



    All my comments are in Bold

    Ken
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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#111

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:44 am

Kenny wrote:All my comments are in Bold
Ken,

If you want to be taken seriously as an atheist, you'll have to come up with more thought-out answers & ideas. As it is, your comments are just silly.

FL :)
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#112

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:20 pm

ok kenny
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#113

Post by Kenny » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:14 pm

If you guys disagree with anything I've said thus far, please state exactly what it is that you disagree with and we can go from there
To simply dismiss what I say without explanation accomplishes nothing.

Ken
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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#114

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:09 pm

Given the quality of your responses already, I really don't see the point, so I decline.

All the best to you.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#115

Post by Kenny » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:07 pm

Jac3510 wrote:Given the quality of your responses already, I really don't see the point, so I decline.

All the best to you.
Hum... Why am I not surprised?

K
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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#116

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:41 pm

Kenny wrote:Hum... Why am I not surprised?
You are not surprised because you have little insight into your own ignorance. You actually believe that you are writing intelligently.

Sorry.

FL :D
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#117

Post by Kenny » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:18 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Kenny wrote:Hum... Why am I not surprised?
You are not surprised because you have little insight into your own ignorance. You actually believe that you are writing intelligently.

Sorry.

FL :D
If that were true, by now somebody would have told me what I said that was ignorant. But instead, everybody just says "aww that's stupid" but they dare not say why.

Ken
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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#118

Post by Kenny » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:27 pm

But getting back to why I find agnostic a flaw position, if somebody asked "do you believe in God" and you reply in typical agnostic fashion; "there is no way of knowing weather God exists or not" you haven't answered the question because the question was about what you BELIEVE, not what you know.

Ken
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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#119

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:08 pm

Kenny wrote:If that were true, by now somebody would have told me what I said that was ignorant. But instead, everybody just says "aww that's stupid" but they dare not say why.
Christians are largely a polite bunch, especially the American Christians on this site. I am a former atheist, and I'm not a polite American: you seem like a dimwit and I told you why:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:You are not surprised because you have little insight into your own ignorance. You actually believe that you are writing intelligently.
You may want to read Atheism, The Case Against God, which is an introduction to common atheist argumuments against the existence of God. While you're at it, read The Atheist Debater's Handbook. These two books will help put some thinking into your thinking.

Stop making a fool of yourself.

FL y:-?
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Atheism: Belief or Position?

#120

Post by Kenny » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:57 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Kenny wrote:If that were true, by now somebody would have told me what I said that was ignorant. But instead, everybody just says "aww that's stupid" but they dare not say why.
Christians are largely a polite bunch, especially the American Christians on this site. I am a former atheist, and I'm not a polite American: you seem like a dimwit and I told you why:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:You are not surprised because you have little insight into your own ignorance. You actually believe that you are writing intelligently.
You may want to read Atheism, The Case Against God, which is an introduction to common atheist argumuments against the existence of God. While you're at it, read The Atheist Debater's Handbook. These two books will help put some thinking into your thinking.

Stop making a fool of yourself.

FL y:-?
Do you really believe insulting me is going to make your point? All I ask is if you disagree with me, state your disagreement; and thus far nobody has done that.
As far as the books you suggest I read; why don't YOU read the books and tell me where I am comming up short.

Ken
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"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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