For Those Who DON'T believe in God:

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Kurieuo
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Re: For Those Who DON'T believe in God:

#31

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:55 pm

Justhuman wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:19 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:56 am
Justhuman wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:19 am
Philip wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:57 am
Ken: Well evidently there are a lot of Christians who don’t always follow Christ’s teachings in how to treat unbelievers. If you don’t see this, perhaps its because you are not an Atheist.
Ken, did you not read what I acknowledged directly above your comment about that reality. Most of those people not obeying Christ teachings on how to treat people aren't Christians, no matter that they might self-identify as such. Many are merely political / cultural, so-called "Christians."
In that case you claim to be a true Christian and all else 'false' Christians. That is a potential very dangerous statement.
How is it dangerous? Lots of people claim to be all sorts of things, doesn't make it so.
"I am the only true believer, everyone else is 'fake' ".
You 'damn' a lot of people with that. Now I don't think that is your purpose, but that kind of statements differentiates between true and false.
It is tragic, however you are saying that I damn people with that statement? Not at all, and I think the opposite -- that if I were to go along with self-identifying Christians who I believed were not, that such would actually be damning and likely damaging to many more people.

Listen, if someone is going to cross the road when a car is coming, then if I were to just go along with their belief that no car is coming that would in fact damn them to being hit. And if it were a parent with kids, I've equally damned their kids to likely being hit also.

So then, the best I can do is to try correct their belief with truth. Of course, yelling out "a car is coming" might be enough to make them look again and stop crossing. Belief in Christ however, who is said to be God visiting in the flesh some 2000 years ago, isn't so easy to anyone's rational mind to believe.
Justhuman wrote:Different Christians claim they are the true Christians. So, which one is the right one? There can be only one.
Well then, you have your work cut out for you. Some people claim the world is flat too, who is right? You decide. God gave you the opportunity to choose and decide for yourself what to believe. At least, YOU play a large role being the main actor in your own life. On the other hand, not everyone believes that we are even responsible in a final sense over our own decisions and actions (and such generally isn't the position of those who do believe God exists).
Justhuman wrote:Since you mentioned the hatred from some atheists towards Christians, maybe your claim is at some basis of that. "God exists, and I am right. Period." There is no room for 'alternatives'.
I didn't mention hatred from atheists? I get along with many who aren't Christian, even if we disagree. I don't take their belief that I believe in a "fairy-God" as being "hatred" any more than the my belief that some people who claim to be Christian aren't really Christian. In fact, while frustration and hatred for belief in God might penetrate through at times, I'd think many Atheists actually want me to give up belief in God because they think such is more liberating and freeing, AND as such it'd be better for myself if I were Atheist.
Justhuman wrote:It is like the the atheist claims "I am right, and you (as a theist) are wrong. Period."
While the agnost claims "I probably am right, and you possibly might be wrong."
True Agnositicism is being without knowledge either way ('a-' meaning without, and 'gnostic' meaning knowledge). It is often the position that "Atheists" today try to re-badge Atheism under, however even in Flew's original paper, The Presumption of Atheism, he states that the Atheism he is arguing for is a rather weak form that makes no positive claim, it is like Agnositicism when it comes to God beliefs. Yet, the moment you take a side, voice an opinion one way or another, even in the slightest, such is the moment you take a positive stance and leave Agnosticism.

That said, as a Christian, I'm not Agnostic at all, but claim to know God exists, believe it is true, and there are many positive arguments for belief in God and even Christ. Again, I'll repeat here, we're each our own judge and jury and have the freedom to think and decide for ourselves. The best I can then do to either a Christian I don't believe is Christian, or an Atheist who rejects God's existence, is to try warn them of their error and anyone who listens to such errors so that they won't actually end up damned. For I truly believe Christ is the cure, the answer, to many evils in our world which currently go unchecked (but it won't always be that way, there will be an end and reckoning that will damn people for any and all evil committed).
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: For Those Who DON'T believe in God:

#32

Post by Kenny » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:45 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:55 pm
True Agnositicism is being without knowledge either way ('a-' meaning without, and 'gnostic' meaning knowledge). It is often the position that "Atheists" today try to re-badge Atheism under, however even in Flew's original paper, The Presumption of Atheism, he states that the Atheism he is arguing for is a rather weak form that makes no positive claim, it is like Agnositicism when it comes to God beliefs. Yet, the moment you take a side, voice an opinion one way or another, even in the slightest, such is the moment you take a positive stance and leave Agnosticism.
This sounds like a contradiction. You don't need knowledge to take a side or voice an opinion.

K

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Re: For Those Who DON'T believe in God:

#33

Post by Philip » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:55 am

Kenny wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:45 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:55 pm
True Agnositicism is being without knowledge either way ('a-' meaning without, and 'gnostic' meaning knowledge). It is often the position that "Atheists" today try to re-badge Atheism under, however even in Flew's original paper, The Presumption of Atheism, he states that the Atheism he is arguing for is a rather weak form that makes no positive claim, it is like Agnositicism when it comes to God beliefs. Yet, the moment you take a side, voice an opinion one way or another, even in the slightest, such is the moment you take a positive stance and leave Agnosticism.
Ken: This sounds like a contradiction. You don't need knowledge to take a side or voice an opinion.

No it's not! The distinction between one claiming atheism and agnosticism is that the agnostic says that he just doesn't know or that the issue of God is unknowable because they don't have adequate knowledge that would determine one way or another. The issue isn't whether one totally without relevant knowledge about God can't take a stand - the issue is whether the person's stated views would qualify him as an agnostic or not.

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Re: For Those Who DON'T believe in God:

#34

Post by RickD » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:20 am

Kenny wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:45 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:55 pm
True Agnositicism is being without knowledge either way ('a-' meaning without, and 'gnostic' meaning knowledge). It is often the position that "Atheists" today try to re-badge Atheism under, however even in Flew's original paper, The Presumption of Atheism, he states that the Atheism he is arguing for is a rather weak form that makes no positive claim, it is like Agnositicism when it comes to God beliefs. Yet, the moment you take a side, voice an opinion one way or another, even in the slightest, such is the moment you take a positive stance and leave Agnosticism.
This sounds like a contradiction. You don't need knowledge to take a side or voice an opinion.

K
While technically one doesn't need knowledge to take a side or voice an opinion, don't you think someone's opinion should be based on some kind of knowledge of the subject on which one has an opinion?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: For Those Who DON'T believe in God:

#35

Post by Kenny » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:28 am

Philip wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:55 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:45 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:55 pm
True Agnositicism is being without knowledge either way ('a-' meaning without, and 'gnostic' meaning knowledge). It is often the position that "Atheists" today try to re-badge Atheism under, however even in Flew's original paper, The Presumption of Atheism, he states that the Atheism he is arguing for is a rather weak form that makes no positive claim, it is like Agnositicism when it comes to God beliefs. Yet, the moment you take a side, voice an opinion one way or another, even in the slightest, such is the moment you take a positive stance and leave Agnosticism.
Ken: This sounds like a contradiction. You don't need knowledge to take a side or voice an opinion.

No it's not! The distinction between one claiming atheism and agnosticism is that the agnostic says that he just doesn't know or that the issue of God is unknowable because they don't have adequate knowledge that would determine one way
or another. The issue isn't whether one totally without relevant knowledge about God can't take a stand - the issue is whether the person's stated views would qualify him as an agnostic or not.
But a person could have belief concerning the issue (perhaps this belief is the result of taking someone else’s word for it, etc.) thus choose a side based on belief; but is convinced it is impossible to truly know due to the nature of God. Such a person would still be agnostic; don’t cha think?

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Re: For Those Who DON'T believe in God:

#36

Post by Kenny » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:29 am

RickD wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:20 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:45 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:55 pm
True Agnositicism is being without knowledge either way ('a-' meaning without, and 'gnostic' meaning knowledge). It is often the position that "Atheists" today try to re-badge Atheism under, however even in Flew's original paper, The Presumption of Atheism, he states that the Atheism he is arguing for is a rather weak form that makes no positive claim, it is like Agnositicism when it comes to God beliefs. Yet, the moment you take a side, voice an opinion one way or another, even in the slightest, such is the moment you take a positive stance and leave Agnosticism.
This sounds like a contradiction. You don't need knowledge to take a side or voice an opinion.

K
While technically one doesn't need knowledge to take a side or voice an opinion, don't you think someone's opinion should be based on some kind of knowledge of the subject on which one has an opinion?
I agree! But it doesn't always turn out that way.

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Re: For Those Who DON'T believe in God:

#37

Post by 1over137 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:41 pm

claysmithr wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:51 am
Philip wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 5:52 pm
Over the years, I've seen quite a few atheist and agnostics on the forum relentlessly argue their reasons why they don't believe in God, or don't believe in an afterlife. Seems they doth protest too much! I really don't get why anyone who believes there is no God truly cares beyond a certain, rather casual point. Those I've seen here typically don't seem terribly upset by Christianity or see Christians as a big threat, nor tend to view Christians as religious simpletons, etc. But I'm surprised at their passion for arguing, over very long periods, over their belief that there is no God. Why does that seem to matter so much to them? Why really care what Believers think? y:-?
1. They may have come from Christian backgrounds themselves

2. If they are wrong, they know there's a hell. Wouldn't you try to have a solid argument why hell doesn't exist, if you didn't believe?

3. They think Christians are intellectually lazy and therefore they get pleasure from trying to de-convert them or they feel better arguing against the "lesser" beleif.

Mind you, these are just my personal guesses.
And to add:
There are some people who are truth-searchers and think Christianity is not based on truth.
(And it happens they become Christians)

Apostle Paul is one example.
(Me is another. Maybe B.W. another)
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: For Those Who DON'T believe in God:

#38

Post by RickD » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:33 pm

Kenny wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:29 am
RickD wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:20 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:45 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:55 pm
True Agnositicism is being without knowledge either way ('a-' meaning without, and 'gnostic' meaning knowledge). It is often the position that "Atheists" today try to re-badge Atheism under, however even in Flew's original paper, The Presumption of Atheism, he states that the Atheism he is arguing for is a rather weak form that makes no positive claim, it is like Agnositicism when it comes to God beliefs. Yet, the moment you take a side, voice an opinion one way or another, even in the slightest, such is the moment you take a positive stance and leave Agnosticism.
This sounds like a contradiction. You don't need knowledge to take a side or voice an opinion.

K
While technically one doesn't need knowledge to take a side or voice an opinion, don't you think someone's opinion should be based on some kind of knowledge of the subject on which one has an opinion?
I agree! But it doesn't always turn out that way.
An opinion, by definition, doesn't necessarily need to be based on knowledge or facts. But, when one makes a positive claim, the onus is on that person, to back up that claim.

That's what the link was getting at.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: For Those Who DON'T believe in God:

#39

Post by claysmithr » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:34 am

1over137 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:41 pm
claysmithr wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:51 am
Philip wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 5:52 pm
Over the years, I've seen quite a few atheist and agnostics on the forum relentlessly argue their reasons why they don't believe in God, or don't believe in an afterlife. Seems they doth protest too much! I really don't get why anyone who believes there is no God truly cares beyond a certain, rather casual point. Those I've seen here typically don't seem terribly upset by Christianity or see Christians as a big threat, nor tend to view Christians as religious simpletons, etc. But I'm surprised at their passion for arguing, over very long periods, over their belief that there is no God. Why does that seem to matter so much to them? Why really care what Believers think? y:-?
1. They may have come from Christian backgrounds themselves

2. If they are wrong, they know there's a hell. Wouldn't you try to have a solid argument why hell doesn't exist, if you didn't believe?

3. They think Christians are intellectually lazy and therefore they get pleasure from trying to de-convert them or they feel better arguing against the "lesser" beleif.

Mind you, these are just my personal guesses.
And to add:
There are some people who are truth-searchers and think Christianity is not based on truth.
(And it happens they become Christians)

Apostle Paul is one example.
(Me is another. Maybe B.W. another)
I am another. I fell into conspiracy -> New Age -> Hospital -> Jesus.

Jesus had to unblind me spiritually in order for me to see his truth.

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Re: For Those Who DON'T believe in God:

#40

Post by 1over137 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:36 pm

Welcome in the club ;)
These users liked this post by 1over137:
claysmithr (Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:12 pm)
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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