Anybody read Believe Me?

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edwardmurphy
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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#16

Post by edwardmurphy » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:52 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:34 am
I said BELIEFS, why are you referring to rights ??
I guess I need an example.

Is my atheism an attack on your religious beliefs, or is it just how I see the world? How about my support for an impermeable wall between Church and State, which means there can never again be school led prayer? Or my belief that all Americans are equal in the eyes of the law, which means that marriage equality is a given? Am I attacking your beliefs or am I simply expressing my beliefs? If it's the former then wouldn't it follow that by stating your own beliefs you're also attacking mine? If it's the latter then where's the attack?

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#17

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:59 am

When you attack the belief that life is sacred, that is an attack on a Christian's belief.
When you ridicule and insult a Christian's faith, that is an attack on Christian belief.
When you force a christian do do something against his beliefs, that is an attack on Christian beliefs.

Since people like to remind others that WORDS are just as harmful as physical violence, then verbal attacks on Christians is the same as physcial attacks on Christians.

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#18

Post by edwardmurphy » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:21 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:59 am
When you attack the belief that life is sacred, that is an attack on a Christian's belief.
When an evangelical Christian supports the death penalty is that an attack on Christian beliefs? And what about policy decisions that lead to unnecessary death, like opposition to universal healthcare or the repeal of environmental regulations? Was it an attack on Christian beliefs when the police killed George Floyd?

It seems to me that if life is sacred then life is sacred. Period. Without condition. That which causes harm to life is an affront to Christian beliefs and must be opposed by anyone who truly believes in the "life is sacred" mantra. Otherwise it's just words. Do you believe that life is sacred because you're a Christian and that's what Christians believe, or have you actually taken time to think through all the difficult implications and really own it?
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:59 am
When you ridicule and insult a Christian's faith, that is an attack on Christian belief.
I've never seen a mainstream American politician ridicule or insult a Christian's faith. Do you have an example?
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:59 am
When you force a christian do do something against his beliefs, that is an attack on Christian beliefs.
Again, do you have an example?

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#19

Post by edwardmurphy » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:47 pm

Philip wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:33 am
And so we're wasting time on opposing what God says is a terrible thing - the unnecessary taking of a human life???!!! Ed, that's your atheism and purely secular / political beliefs informing you of this.
You should read that article I linked.

Anyway, what I'm actually doing is (very) roughly paraphrasing what John Fea wrote in his book. Just so we're clear, Fea is an evangelical Christian who teaches history at Messiah College. His position is that "the taking of a human life in the womb via the practice of abortion is a horrific practice." In other words, he stands with the opposition in that regard. Where he differs from the religious right is that he's a clear-eyed realist who understands history, government, and politics and he knows that attacking Roe v Wade is a costly battle that cannot be won. Let's review the possible outcomes again:

1) The religious right triumphs! Roe v Wade is overturned. Red states, which already do everything in their power to make it difficult to impossible to get an abortion, are able to ban the practice outright. Unwanted pregnancy rates remain high (due to the religious right's insistence on limiting sex ed to the failed abstinence only model) and poor women are forced to have children that they can't support. Poverty and crime increase. Red state women with resources stop getting abortions and start taking "vacations" to California or Colorado or wherever. Abortion Tourism becomes a new blue state revenue stream.

2) John Roberts - who has already stated that Roe v Wade is settled law - sides with the liberals. The case is upheld. Red states continue to do everything in their power to make it difficult, expensive, and humiliating to get an abortion. Conservative Christians continue trying to pack the courts and looking for ways to undermine Roe v Wade. Unwanted pregnancy rates remain high (due to the religious right's insistence on limiting sex ed to the failed abstinence only model) and many poor women are forced to have children that they can't support. Poverty and crime stay about the same. Red state women with resources continue to get abortions at home, unless they opt to go elsewhere for a less degrading experience. Blue states are largely unaffected.

3) This one is Fea's. Religious conservatives accept that they cannot simply forbid abortion and start looking at alternative methods of lowering abortion rates. They invest their brain power and lobbying money into Christian outreach and using a blend of non judgemental compassion, Christ's message of hope and love, and well financed social programs (education, job coaching, parenting classes, childcare, adoption services, etc) they convince as many women as they can to join the church, find comfort in their faith, and carry their pregnancies to term. The world becomes a slightly better place.

My informal cost-benefit analysis tells me that #3 is the option that does the most good with the least harm, and my atheism and purely secular / political beliefs allow me to ignore all the wishful thinking and dogmatic [nonsense] and recognize it as a practical response to the problems of unwanted pregnancy, poverty, and yes, abortion.
Philip wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:33 am
Christians are held to a differing and higher standard for what our values are.
I accept that you believe that, but I don't. There are a great many religions out there and most of them claim to be divinely inspired sources of objective morality. Since I don't believe in gods that whole idea is meaningless to me. Even if gods were real, as long as you have the option to select between a bunch of different "objective" moralities your choice can't help but be a subjective one. Thus your values are the ones you picked or that your parents taught you, same as mine.
Philip wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:33 am
Ed, what you're basically trying to do here is demonize Christians in an attempt to make them look like hypocrites, when the reality is, their choices are pretty bad right now - and that's just amongst the Republicans we have to choose from.
Not really. I was actually trying to start a conversation about an interesting book that I read. Anyway, your choices are easy this year. It's either Trump or America.

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#20

Post by edwardmurphy » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:45 pm


PaulSacramento
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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#21

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:16 am

Jesus would not have approved of ANY politician.
Yet, He said " render to Caesar what is Caesar's and God's what is God's".

I personally don't get Christian's supporting Trump, but understand the support of SOME of his policies.
I think that most Christians would love to have better option.
Please, give them one.

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#22

Post by edwardmurphy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:53 am

They have a better option. His name is Joe Biden. Also, you didn't answer my questions.

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#23

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:25 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:53 am
They have a better option. His name is Joe Biden. Also, you didn't answer my questions.
You actually think that Biden is a better option ??
Let me re-phrase that, do you actually think that non-democrats see Biden as a better option?
Dude, I would have voted for Yang and Gabbard, not Biden.

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#24

Post by Philip » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:30 am

Ed: And what about policy decisions that lead to unnecessary death, like opposition to universal healthcare or the repeal of environmental regulations? Was it an attack on Christian beliefs when the police killed George Floyd?
There are important nuances to the question of universal health care – the extent of what and who it covers. But, generally speaking, Christians SHOULD favor policies that protect the desperately poor and those without basic ability to receive healthcare. But we can’t cover EVERYONE cradle to grave – nor should we. Those that CAN pay, should. But this forum isn’t designed for constantly debating wonky policy nuances, and nor will I. But we are to have compassion for those who can’t help themselves or can’t afford it. And, BTW, besides many other considerations, how we limit the numbers of who we let let – both legally and illegally – impacts our collective ability to take care of those truly in need, that are already here.
Ed: When an evangelical Christian supports the death penalty is that an attack on Christian beliefs?
If you knew Scripture, you’d know that in it, God Himself mandated the death penalty! Even in the New Testament, the power of the state to attached that punishment to certain murderous crimes is affirmed, and certainly not refuted / done away with: From the BBC on Christianity and the death penalty: https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religion ... nt_1.shtml
Ed: … he (Fea) knows that attacking Roe v Wade is a costly battle that cannot be won.
But “if” God has created life and has mandated its sacredness – if this is true, then Christians have the moral right to stand against it – regardless of the financial costs. We aren't to choose what is right to stand up for based only upon the costs involved.
Ed: Since I don't believe in gods that whole idea is meaningless to me. Even if gods were real, as long as you have the option to select between a bunch of different "objective" moralities your choice can't help but be a subjective one. Thus your values are the ones you picked or that your parents taught you, same as mine.
Ed, there is a reality behind this universe and time – either God exists and has come in the form of Christ, or He has not. And “if” He has, then whatever religious myths and false gods invented by man are irrelevant and thus there CAN be just one God and His laws of morality. And ONLY IF Christianity was just a series of fabrications, would you then be correct – as none of it’s teachings would matter one bit. But, then again, neither would your moral sense of things, mine, or anyone else’s either!

Ed, I don’t believe you have even evaluated the evidences of the God of the Bible. Yours seems a constant emotional response disguised as being intellectual in nature. There is much, very detailed, fulfilled prophecies to look at. There is common sense that a sophisticated universe couldn’t just pop into existence immediately, with such extraordinary things we can’t even really understand them but faintly, and JUST the right things or incredible designs immediately became physical and operating with breathtaking precision – you have no answer to that and NO reason to believe that “it could just happen.” And you sure can’t tie the “given enough time” belief to something that occurred instantly! No billions of years involved for blind, non-intelligent processes to do anything at all – because, at the Big Bang, what was instantaneously created was a functioning, complex, interactive universe obeying precision laws that still govern us today. Everything that instantly came into existence, within the first minutes of the Big Bang, checks every possible box for amazing things that require intelligence! And the belief that non-intelligent things could ever create themselves, or even if eternally existing, given enough time, become intelligent and create and do extraordinary things. What is it about blind, non-intelligent - not to mention previously non-existing things - do people not get???

In fact, Ed, you never seem to substantially discuss any of the evidences put forth for our belief in God. You only seem to be here year in and out trying to disparage Christian beliefs and pushing political solutions. WHY? It just makes no sense. Go to one of a million political chat rooms for such stuff. You’re a lot like Kenny, who spent years arguing for his unbelief and atheism. I’ve never seen either of you convince anyone of your anti-theistic, atheist-influenced beliefs! It's like you're continuously looking to prove what you cannot to people (Christians) who already and totally disagree with your core worldview beliefs, or to insinuate they are hypocrites. Why keep torturing yourself? And please don't think I'm saying you don't have the right to be here - as you most certainly do. And it's certainly not personal - I'm sure you're a nice chap. But the collective thrust of your posts are beginning to look extremely redundant, as well as the motivation, is, well, bewildering.

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#25

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:31 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:21 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:59 am
When you attack the belief that life is sacred, that is an attack on a Christian's belief.
When an evangelical Christian supports the death penalty is that an attack on Christian beliefs? And what about policy decisions that lead to unnecessary death, like opposition to universal healthcare or the repeal of environmental regulations? Was it an attack on Christian beliefs when the police killed George Floyd?

It seems to me that if life is sacred then life is sacred. Period. Without condition. That which causes harm to life is an affront to Christian beliefs and must be opposed by anyone who truly believes in the "life is sacred" mantra. Otherwise it's just words. Do you believe that life is sacred because you're a Christian and that's what Christians believe, or have you actually taken time to think through all the difficult implications and really own it?
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:59 am
When you ridicule and insult a Christian's faith, that is an attack on Christian belief.
I've never seen a mainstream American politician ridicule or insult a Christian's faith. Do you have an example?
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:59 am
When you force a christian do do something against his beliefs, that is an attack on Christian beliefs.
Again, do you have an example?
Examples of what?
Of what people feel and believe ??
Dude..

Did you never hear that "perception is reality"?

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#26

Post by edwardmurphy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:23 pm

Ok, so Christians feel and believe that their beliefs are being attacked and because they feel and believe that it's reality...?

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#27

Post by Hortator » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:42 pm

You're right Ed, whatever was I thinking voting for Trump in '16?

I shall be sure to vote for the Alzheimer's patient come November.

There, now will you kindly get the hell out of here already, father of two daughters from New England who works for a school with his wife as principal that would be easy as tearing wet tissue paper to sabotage said career, income, and financial security with a few anonymous complaints? We have endured your B.S. long enough, just leave. I'm about to just call in my chips and make you my voodoo doll and mess with your life in every legal way imaginable. You stand for everything I hate, and I have all the time in the world to torment you.

Seriously, beat it.

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#28

Post by Fliegender » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:32 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:23 pm
Ok, so Christians feel and believe that their beliefs are being attacked and because they feel and believe that it's reality...?
Wherever did you get the idea that Christians are lobotomized Trumpophiles?

:D
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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#29

Post by RickD » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:11 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:53 am
They have a better option. His name is Joe Biden.
:pound: :pound: :pound:

Love the sarcasm, Ed.

I needed a good laugh.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#30

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:23 pm
Ok, so Christians feel and believe that their beliefs are being attacked and because they feel and believe that it's reality...?
Sure, just like everyone else.

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