Anybody read Believe Me?

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edwardmurphy
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Anybody read Believe Me?

#1

Post by edwardmurphy » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:11 pm


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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#2

Post by Philip » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:54 pm

Most evangelicals know Trump is a piece of work, a braggart,vain, thin-skinned, a serial adulterer, crass, crude, and plays loose with facts (lies when it suits him), etc. But they have preferred him and his policies to what they view as a nightmare waiting in the wings from the socialists, far-left and radicals. I think most evangelicals are suspect of his supposed faith in Christ. It's a myth that there is widespread evangelical LOVE for Trump!

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#3

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:22 am

I don't know any Christian that is a fan of Trump.
That said, he doesn't attack Christians like other candidates do.
Maybe there is a lesson there for democrats ?

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#4

Post by RickD » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:36 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:22 am
I don't know any Christian that is a fan of Trump.
That said, he doesn't attack Christians like other candidates do.
Maybe there is a lesson there for democrats ?
Don’t know any Christian who is a fan of Trump?

I guess you don’t get FoxNews in Canada.
:lol:
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Philip (Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:53 am)
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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edwardmurphy
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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#5

Post by edwardmurphy » Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:10 am

I take it you didn't read the book? Here's an overview:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/20 ... n-fea.html

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#6

Post by edwardmurphy » Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:30 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:22 am
I don't know any Christian that is a fan of Trump.
In 2016 Trump got 81% of the evangelical vote.
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:22 am
That said, he doesn't attack Christians like other candidates do.
I don't understand this claim. What attacks are you talking about?
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:22 am
Maybe there is a lesson there for democrats ?
Fea actually makes the point that one of Clinton's major blunders was her failure to court evangelical voters, and I think he has a point. And the Democrats have consistently made the mistake of permitting the Christian right to use the word "Christian" to represent themselves and only themselves, when in reality there are tens of millions of liberal Christians in America. That said, I'm not going to say the Dems should stop attacking Christians until somebody demonstrates that they ever were.

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#7

Post by Philip » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:55 am

Define the Christian Right, Ed.

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#8

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:55 pm

Like I said I (me personally) don't know any Christians that are a fan of Trump.
I guess there are some, I just don't know any.
I know some that agree with certain polices ( pro-life) and some that view him as a "lesser of two evils".
None of that equates to being a fan.

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:56 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:30 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:22 am
I don't know any Christian that is a fan of Trump.
In 2016 Trump got 81% of the evangelical vote.
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:22 am
That said, he doesn't attack Christians like other candidates do.
I don't understand this claim. What attacks are you talking about?
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:22 am
Maybe there is a lesson there for democrats ?
Fea actually makes the point that one of Clinton's major blunders was her failure to court evangelical voters, and I think he has a point. And the Democrats have consistently made the mistake of permitting the Christian right to use the word "Christian" to represent themselves and only themselves, when in reality there are tens of millions of liberal Christians in America. That said, I'm not going to say the Dems should stop attacking Christians until somebody demonstrates that they ever were.
You don't feel that attacks on Christian beliefs are attack on Christians?

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#10

Post by edwardmurphy » Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:36 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:55 am
Define the Christian Right, Ed.
Wikipedia sums the movement up pretty well:
The Christian right or the religious right are Christian political factions that are characterized by their strong support of socially conservative policies. Christian conservatives seek to influence politics and public policy with their interpretation of the teachings of Christianity.
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:56 pm
You don't feel that attacks on Christian beliefs are attack on Christians?
Attacks on Christian beliefs could be characterized as attacks on Christians, but that doesn't answer the question. What Christian beliefs are being attacked? In what instance are Christians being denied the right to live and worship as they see fit? What rights do others have that are not extended to Christians?

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#11

Post by Fliegender » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:48 pm

I think religion has way too much influence in American politics. Way, waaaaaaay too much. A similar state of affairs exists in Iran. Any politician who brandishes a Bible or a Quran as a badge of honor is suspect to me.

And Fox exists in Canada. It’s a trashy network in my opinion. Heck, even Al-jazeera makes a better attempt at objectivity...
"I never said that all conservatives are stupid people but it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
-John Stewart Mill

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#12

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:34 am

Attacks on Christian beliefs could be characterized as attacks on Christians, but that doesn't answer the question. What Christian beliefs are being attacked? In what instance are Christians being denied the right to live and worship as they see fit? What rights do others have that are not extended to Christians?
I said BELIEFS, why are you referring to rights ??

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#13

Post by Philip » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:40 am

Ed: Democrats have consistently made the mistake of permitting the Christian right to use the word "Christian" to represent themselves and only themselves
Christians I know realize that there are Christians with all manner of political beliefs. But we CAN call out certain political beliefs as not lining up with Biblical Christian teachings - like with abortion, by the way. When we see certain things, we CAN pick and choose what to criticize. But I think aligning oneself TOTALLY with ANY party is bad - because the party's are filled with flawed human beings, with each of them having the potential to back, say, and do bad things. And as for which party a Christian backs - even if they tend to lean more toward one party than another, we still no politics is a secular approach to life and that there are plenty of non-Christians and even atheists in ALL political parties. No party is full of saints and the rest populated by devils.
FlieG: I think religion has way too much influence in American politics. Way, waaaaaaay too much. A similar state of affairs exists in Iran. Any politician who brandishes a Bible or a Quran as a badge of honor is suspect to me.
I hope you're not saying that Christians shouldn't be involved in politics or that our faith shouldn't greatly influence how we make political choices. Because every Christian SHOULD make political choices, amongst the ones available - even when those choices are sometime almost all terrible and there's only a bit of hope that one choice might lead to better things than another. That's just life. Otherwise, we concede every choice to whatever majorities might result from Christians simply exiting the process. And our faith SHOULD influence our choices - as well as everything we do. If one believes we serve an all-powerful God and that His ways are best - even if we often imperfectly enact how we think we should reflect that - we should be so influenced.

Yet, there is a terrible thing about politicians of both U.S. parties trying to co-opt people of faith and reference the Bible, Jesus, etc., as if they are just cynically putting on a show and referencing such things while pandering for votes. That's a sickening thing - like having one's favorite pastor to campaign rallies, etc. Billy Graham was one that later greatly regretted allowing himself to be used by Nixon. Obama loved his pastor and probably used that association as he politically rose in Chicago - and then dumped him when Jeremiah's comments might keep him from the presidency. Peolosi, Saint Ted, those of other parties, many politicians have tried to associate whatever faith stuff merely for show, particularly around election time - these ARE deplorable, cynical things. State your political values - even that one is a person of faith - but don't keep yakking about and trying to connect one's supposed faith to political things. Go in my house - you don't see Jesus plaques all over the wall or bumper stickers everywhere. It's unnecessary. And if mere trappings of stuff is needed to show our values, I think it makes the stated values quite suspect.

So, it matters quite a bit if one says religion has too much impact upon politics - because being impacted by genuine faith IS good. Using merely the trappings of it to gain or stay in office - horrible! Because people often make pointless categorical comments when defined nuances would be far better to assess!

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#14

Post by edwardmurphy » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:10 am

Philip wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:40 am
Christians I know realize that there are Christians with all manner of political beliefs. But we CAN call out certain political beliefs as not lining up with Biblical Christian teachings - like with abortion, by the way.
Abortion is one of the things that Fea discusses at length. He says that the Christian right's anti-abortion efforts are seriously misguided and that they're wasting time and money on a fight that cannot be won and are destroying their own credibility in the process.

It seems to me that he has a point. If the SCOTUS strikes down Rov v Wade - which seems unlikely, being that Roberts has said that he sees the decision as settled law - it will just go to the states. In blue and purple states abortion will remain legal. In red states it will be banned, at which point poor women will be forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term and women with resources will just "vacation" in California, or Colorado, or where ever. Long term it will just widen the economic gap between blue and red states even further. That's a pretty poor outcome, considering how much the religious right has invested in the fight. As Fea says, better to invest that money into making people's lives better than on a hopeless political struggle.
Philip wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:40 am
No party is full of saints and the rest populated by devils.
Generally true, but at the moment the GOP is the Party of Trump. There may be saints left in the party, but they're keeping their heads down. The dominant figures in the current Republican Party are the President and his sycophants. Nobody else matters.

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Re: Anybody read Believe Me?

#15

Post by Philip » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:33 am

Ed: Abortion is one of the things that Fea discusses at length. He says that the Christian right's anti-abortion efforts are seriously misguided and that they're wasting time and money on a fight that cannot be won and are destroying their own credibility in the process.

Ed: As Fea says, better to invest that money into making people's lives better than on a hopeless political struggle.
So, God makes it clear to Christians what He considers to be life, that we are planned even before the womb, and in it we are already completely human, and that ALL human life is sacred (all people bare His Image). And excepting killing in war or defending oneself, only HE has the right to take it. And so we're wasting time on opposing what God says is a terrible thing - the unnecessary taking of a human life???!!! Ed, that's your atheism and purely secular / political beliefs informing you of this. Christians are held to a differing and higher standard for what our values are. We must constantly choose between extremely problematic, messy politicians - that's just the real world we all face!

BTW, again, that was little Eddie, once in your mother's womb - same DNA, bloodtype, etc. - yep, the pre-liberal you, LOL!
Ed: ...at the moment the GOP is the Party of Trump. There may be saints left in the party, but they're keeping their heads down.
There are realities that we cannot help, that we must choose from - and Trump is one of those unfortunate personalities - an extremely messed up, mixed bag, per his political stances and words. But there are also considerable realities concerning the other party. It's not "corrupt Trump" vs. "Pelosi, Chucky, and the all-saints choir!" Ed, what you're basically trying to do here is demonize Christians in an attempt to make them look like hypocrites, when the reality is, their choices are pretty bad right now - and that's just amongst the Republicans we have to choose from. I can describe the kind of choices I would greatly prefer - but that's just wishful thinking, at the moment.

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