Convinced yet...?

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edwardmurphy
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Re: Convinced yet...?

#31

Post by edwardmurphy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:21 pm

This is what Dr. Katz has to say. It's a great read. I already posted a condensed version of his ideas above. I encourage everyone to read both.

https://www.truehealthinitiative.org/ne ... ronavirus/

It's also worth pointing out that he doesn't say anything remotely similar to "just get out there and live your life." I haven't seen him comment on the current idiocy, but I've been reading his words for an hour now and nothing he's said lines up with approving of people ignoring the experts and the government and holding political rallies at the height of a pandemic.

Here's his conclusion. I completely agree. I like Dr. Katz.
Greatness would be great. But greatness right now is hollow rhetoric; an empty slogan; a distraction. Greatness is absurdly out of reach when basic functionality and safety so glaringly elude us. Personally, I’d settle for knowing grown-ups are in charge.

Let’s make America functional again; let’s make America safe again. Greatness can wait while we attend to safety and basic functionality.

Both cry out for a plan. A thoughtful, compassionate, careful, nuanced, data-driven, expertly guided, not-reducible-to-a-tweet plan for total harm minimization. America’s response to the coronavirus pandemic waits for it. Find somebody important, and let them know.
And Rick, if you and your coworkers haven't been taking this seriously and you're still all okay the most likely explanation is that so far you've been lucky. I hope it holds for you.

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Re: Convinced yet...?

#32

Post by RickD » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:23 am

Ed wrote:
And Rick, if you and your coworkers haven't been taking this seriously and you're still all okay the most likely explanation is that so far you've been lucky. I hope it holds for you.
Haven’t been taking this seriously?

Dude,

You have no idea what you’re talking about. There are ways that hospital employees deal with infectious diseases. We have protocols that we always follow, not only when the coronavirus is here. Ever heard of soap, hand sanitizer, and ppe when dealing with known cases?
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Re: Convinced yet...?

#33

Post by RickD » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:52 am

RickD wrote: ↑
So stop acting like those that disagree with you are ignorant, and that you know it all.
DBowling wrote:
I said no such thing!
And you need to stop with the misrepresentations and straw man arguments.
Of course you did! You said:
It is irresponsible and ignorant to ignore social distancing regulations and put yourself and even more importantly your loved ones at risk.

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Re: Convinced yet...?

#34

Post by DBowling » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:13 am

RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:52 am
RickD wrote: ↑
So stop acting like those that disagree with you are ignorant, and that you know it all.
DBowling wrote:
I said no such thing!
And you need to stop with the misrepresentations and straw man arguments.
Of course you did! You said:
It is irresponsible and ignorant to ignore social distancing regulations and put yourself and even more importantly your loved ones at risk.

Here... let's put the two statements in question side by side and see if you are being truthful.
Rick:
So stop acting like those that disagree with you are ignorant, and that you know it all.
DB:
It is irresponsible and ignorant to ignore social distancing regulations and put yourself and even more importantly your loved ones at risk.
I'm more than happy to let the factual accuracy of our respective assertions speak for themselves.

Note: I do characterize certain types of behavior as "irresponsible and ignorant", but contrary to your false accusation, there is nothing in my comment that addresses the mental capacity of "those that disagree with me".

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Re: Convinced yet...?

#35

Post by RickD » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:53 am

DBowling wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:13 am
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:52 am
RickD wrote: ↑
So stop acting like those that disagree with you are ignorant, and that you know it all.
DBowling wrote:
I said no such thing!
And you need to stop with the misrepresentations and straw man arguments.
Of course you did! You said:
It is irresponsible and ignorant to ignore social distancing regulations and put yourself and even more importantly your loved ones at risk.

Here... let's put the two statements in question side by side and see if you are being truthful.
Rick:
So stop acting like those that disagree with you are ignorant, and that you know it all.
DB:
It is irresponsible and ignorant to ignore social distancing regulations and put yourself and even more importantly your loved ones at risk.
I'm more than happy to let the factual accuracy of our respective assertions speak for themselves.

Note: I do characterize certain types of behavior as "irresponsible and ignorant", but contrary to your false accusation, there is nothing in my comment that addresses the mental capacity of "those that disagree with me".
You had two choices:

1) realize you were wrong and apologize

2) double down, and claim there’s a difference between calling someone’s actions irresponsible and ignorant, and claiming the person is irresponsible and ignorant.

If my actions are irresponsible and ignorant, that’s because in this case, I’m irresponsible and ignorant.

There’s no difference, and you know it.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Convinced yet...?

#36

Post by DBowling » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:02 am

RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:53 am
DBowling wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:13 am
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:52 am
RickD wrote: ↑
So stop acting like those that disagree with you are ignorant, and that you know it all.
DBowling wrote:
I said no such thing!
And you need to stop with the misrepresentations and straw man arguments.
Of course you did! You said:
It is irresponsible and ignorant to ignore social distancing regulations and put yourself and even more importantly your loved ones at risk.

Here... let's put the two statements in question side by side and see if you are being truthful.
Rick:
So stop acting like those that disagree with you are ignorant, and that you know it all.
DB:
It is irresponsible and ignorant to ignore social distancing regulations and put yourself and even more importantly your loved ones at risk.
I'm more than happy to let the factual accuracy of our respective assertions speak for themselves.

Note: I do characterize certain types of behavior as "irresponsible and ignorant", but contrary to your false accusation, there is nothing in my comment that addresses the mental capacity of "those that disagree with me".
You had two choices:

1) realize you were wrong and apologize

2) double down, and claim there’s a difference between calling someone’s actions irresponsible and ignorant, and claiming the person is irresponsible and ignorant.
You had two choices
1) Stop the false accusations and apologize
2) Double down on the misrepresentations and false accusations

For some reason I do not understand you have decided to double down on dishonesty.

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Re: Convinced yet...?

#37

Post by RickD » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:44 am

Saying that you’re calling behavior irresponsible and ignorant, and claiming that you’re not calling the person irresponsible and ignorant, is like accusing someone of stealing, yet claiming you’re not calling him a thief.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Convinced yet...?

#38

Post by DBowling » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:16 am

RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:44 am
Saying that you’re calling behavior irresponsible and ignorant, and claiming that you’re not calling the person irresponsible and ignorant, is like accusing someone of stealing, yet claiming you’re not calling him a thief.
I have done my share of irresponsible and ignorant things in my life, but I do not think of myself as an irresponsible and ignorant person.
So I categorically reject the premise that participating in an "irresponsible and ignorant" activity somehow defines the totality of a person as fundamentally "irresponsible and ignorant".

However, If a person knowingly and repeatedly engages in "irresponsible and ignorant" behavior then that could reflect on that person's fundamental character.

Let me make one thing very clear.
I am unaware of anything that you personally have done that falls into the "irresponsible and ignorant" behavior that I describe in my posts.
To the best of my knowledge you have not knowingly "ignored social distancing regulations and put yourself and even more importantly your loved ones at risk."

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Re: Convinced yet...?

#39

Post by Philip » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:38 am

Unreal what gets focused on around here!

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Re: Convinced yet...?

#40

Post by RickD » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:54 am

Philip wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:38 am
Unreal what gets focused on around here!
Just trying to bring life to a dead forum.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Convinced yet...?

#41

Post by RickD » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:57 am

DBowling wrote:
I have done my share of irresponsible and ignorant things in my life, but I do not think of myself as an irresponsible and ignorant person.
So I categorically reject the premise that participating in an "irresponsible and ignorant" activity somehow defines the totality of a person as fundamentally "irresponsible and ignorant".
And I never said that you’re defining the totality of a person. I said in that specific case.

If I steal something only one time, I’m a thief. That doesn’t mean my entire life is defined by it.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Convinced yet...?

#42

Post by edwardmurphy » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:58 am

RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:23 am
Haven’t been taking this seriously?

Dude,

You have no idea what you’re talking about. There are ways that hospital employees deal with infectious diseases. We have protocols that we always follow, not only when the coronavirus is here. Ever heard of soap, hand sanitizer, and ppe when dealing with known cases?
You've repeatedly made a point about not wearing masks or social distancing. You keep saying that we're wrong to call the people rallying in pblic during a pandemic irresponsible, or call the President irresponsible for encouraging them. The very strong implication is that you don't think that Covid-19 is nearly as big a deal as it's being made out to be. In other words, you don't take it especially seriously.

Now you're talking about protocols, and PPE, and safety standards. Are masks no longer PPE, or are you actually using masks while dealing with Covid-19 patients but not in the cafe? What point are you trying to make? You've repeatedly implied that Covid-19 isn't that big a deal. Now I'm an idiot for thinking you don't take it seriously.

WTF...?

So yeah, sorry if I misinterpreted something, but your writing style is as clear as mud.

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Re: Convinced yet...?

#43

Post by RickD » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:35 am

Ed wrote:
You've repeatedly made a point about not wearing masks or social distancing.
We are wearing level 1 masks in the hospital now. And there’s really no way to practice social distancing in a hospital.
You've repeatedly implied that Covid-19 isn't that big a deal. Now I'm an idiot for thinking you don't take it seriously.
For the majority, it isn’t a big deal. There’s a large percent of people who test positive, but don’t show any symptoms. And there’s another big percentage who only show minor symptoms.

And no, I don’t think you’re an idiot.
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John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Convinced yet...?

#44

Post by Fliegender » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:24 pm

Yeah, well, I’m not really concerned about covid-19, at least not as a health risk anymore. As I’ve said elsewhere, my wife was diagnosed with a bad case of it but she’s still alive. I was mysteriously sick for three days but I didn’t bother to get checked. I think Trump is a friggin’ fool but he’s right in that the economy needs to be restarted* or there will be serious problems as we go forward. As someone once said, "Let the dead bury their dead"

:amen:

*yes, I actually said "Trump is right". I must now go and wash my mouth out with soap.
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Re: Convinced yet...?

#45

Post by edwardmurphy » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:04 pm

RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:35 am
We are wearing level 1 masks in the hospital now. And there’s really no way to practice social distancing in a hospital.
And you can't just shut down and go home. You guys are the front lines. I get that. But it's not clear if you're practicing social distancing at home, or encouraging others to do so. I assume you are, but your statements on the matter have been ambiguous.

By the way, I strongly agree with pretty much everything that Dr. Katz had to say, but you have to remember that his entire plan was predicated on massive testing and data collection right from the beginning. That didn't happen, and now we're in the [poop]. At this point what he's saying is that we need to get people out of the house and back to work as soon as we possibly can, but that until we have more testing and more data it's too dangerous to move aggressively. Nothing that he said would be justification for holding a public Trump in mid April, but hopefully we'll be in a position to safely implement some of his ideas in a couple of weeks.

Anyway, thanks for introducing me to Katz, and stay safe.
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:35 am
For the majority, it isn’t a big deal. There’s a large percent of people who test positive, but don’t show any symptoms. And there’s another big percentage who only show minor symptoms.
Yes, but that's a large part of why it's such a big deal overall. Many people have it - certainly far more than the confirmed 790,000ish cases - and most of them don't know it. The virus seems to be extremely contagious, and while the true mortality rate is almost certainly lower than the previous estimates of 3-5% it's also clearly much, much deadlier than the flu. A bad flu season kills 40,000 people in 6 months. Covid-19 has killed more than 40,000 people in 6 weeks, despite unprecedented social distancing efforts.

Those guys who are going out to protest social distancing and rally for Trump could very easily catch the virus and then bring it back to their communities, where it might just kill some of their more vulnerable neighbors. A big enough outbreak will also overwhelm their hospitals.

Sure, that stuff might not happen, but it might. Why chance it just to ***** about social distancing in mid April when the governor plans to start opening things back up on May 1st? Is going to a Trump rally really worth it if there's a risk of bringing Covid-19 back home with you?

That behavior is irresponsible and dangerous, and encouraging irresponsible, dangerous behavior - like Trump and Fox News are now doing - is also irresponsible and dangerous. People will die because of these rallies.
RickD wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:35 am
And no, I don’t think you’re an idiot.
Good to hear. I don't think you're an idiot either.
Last edited by edwardmurphy on Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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