Convinced yet...?

Discussions about politics and goings on around the world. (Please keep discussions civil!)
User avatar
edwardmurphy
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2302
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 196 times
Been liked: 134 times

Convinced yet...?

#1

Post by edwardmurphy » Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:09 pm

The President of the US responded to this:

Image

With this:

Image

It's a pandemic. In the last 60 days we've gone from 15 confirmed cases of Covid-19 to 710,021 confirmed cases. In the last 45 days Covid-19 has killed 37,158 people that we know of. We still don't have enough tests for the living, much less for the dead, so those numbers continue to be artificially low.

That's the context in which the President of the United States went on Twitter to tell scared, angry, armed people to "liberate" their states from the tyranny of being told to stay home by Democratic governors. The most generous interpretation of his comments is that he's trying to incite mass protests and civil disobedience at the height of a pandemic, which is insane. A less generous interpretation is that the President is trying to incite violence within states governed by people that he doesn't like. In practical terms it doesn't much matter which he was going for, because there's a decent chance that his comments will cause both regardless.

So...convinced yet?

If not please explain why the President's behavior is other than how I've described it and why it's okay. Seriously, I'm dying for an explanation.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21642
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 1109 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#2

Post by RickD » Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:33 pm

Hey Ed,

How’s the atmosphere up there in New England, with the possibility that the Red Sox and Pats May not be playing this year?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
edwardmurphy
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2302
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 196 times
Been liked: 134 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#3

Post by edwardmurphy » Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:41 pm

It's tense, Rick. There's a pandemic, the President is dangerously unstable, and the economy is collapsing. That said, I think it's worth a chuckle that the Bucks signed Brady but might not get to play him until he's 44. The pandemic might just end his career.

Back to the question - do you condemn or condone Trump's tweets in support of public protests and civil disobedience at the height of a pandemic? There's really no middle ground on this one.

User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 10034
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia
Has liked: 648 times
Been liked: 665 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#4

Post by Kurieuo » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:06 am

You don't know it'll be Trump for another four years? I wonder how some people are going to cope when that happens.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21642
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 1109 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#5

Post by RickD » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:49 am

EdwardMurphy wrote:
Back to the question - do you condemn or condone Trump's tweets in support of public protests and civil disobedience at the height of a pandemic? There's really no middle ground on this one.
Living in Florida, I may be able to go see Brady in Tampa, if the tickets aren’t too expensive.

I already can see the Red Sox play there.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

DBowling
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1650
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 29 times
Been liked: 182 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#6

Post by DBowling » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:20 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:41 pm
It's tense, Rick. There's a pandemic, the President is dangerously unstable, and the economy is collapsing. That said, I think it's worth a chuckle that the Bucks signed Brady but might not get to play him until he's 44. The pandemic might just end his career.

Back to the question - do you condemn or condone Trump's tweets in support of public protests and civil disobedience at the height of a pandemic? There's really no middle ground on this one.
I think you are missing something pretty basic here.
These were not so much "protests" but thinly disguised campaign rallies.
Just look at the signs they were carrying.

All three of these 'protests' took place in states with Democratic governors that are critical to Trump's reelection.
So of course Trump supports these 'protests'.

I for one am thankful that I live in a state where the governor took the pandemic seriously, made data driven decisions, and took swift and decisive action to slow and combat the spread of covid-19 in her state.

The actions of "that woman from Michigan" has 'flattened the curve' in MI and SAVED HUMAN LIVES!
I will take decisive action to save human lives over pompous blustering and posturing any day.

Protests and political speech (even ignorant protests and political speech) are an integral part of our country.
But don't make the mistake of thinking that the ignorant behavior of a group of 'protestors' is representative of the people of Minnesota, Michigan, and Virginia.
These users liked this post by DBowling:
edwardmurphy (Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:44 am)

User avatar
edwardmurphy
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2302
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 196 times
Been liked: 134 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#7

Post by edwardmurphy » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:26 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:06 am
You don't know it'll be Trump for another four years? I wonder how some people are going to cope when that happens.
RickD wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:49 am
Living in Florida, I may be able to go see Brady in Tampa, if the tickets aren’t too expensive.

I already can see the Red Sox play there.
Sounds like what you're saying is that you condone Trump's behavior, but for some reason you don't wish to defend it.

And I'd be happy to discuss Tom Brady and the Sox in one of those friendly chit chat areas. This space is labeled Politics and World Events.
Last edited by edwardmurphy on Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
edwardmurphy
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2302
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 196 times
Been liked: 134 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#8

Post by edwardmurphy » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:43 am

DBowling wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:20 am
I think you are missing something pretty basic here.
These were not so much "protests" but thinly disguised campaign rallies.
Just look at the signs they were carrying.

All three of these 'protests' took place in states with Democratic governors that are critical to Trump's reelection.
So of course Trump supports these 'protests'.
I read them as protests against Democratic governors and in support of the President, but yeah, that pretty much makes them campaign rallies.

Trump is also trying to weaponize social distancing. If we don't end up with the predicted 100,000 to 200,000 deaths it will mean that social distancing was was successful and saved lives, but Trump will spin it as Democrats overreacting to something that wasn't as serious as the "so-called experts" claimed and thereby hurting the economy.

Of course, by undermining confidence in social distancing, Democratic governors, and public health experts Trump will make us all more vulnerable to the next wave(s) of the virus, but that's not something that will concern him.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21642
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 1109 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#9

Post by RickD » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:18 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:26 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:06 am
You don't know it'll be Trump for another four years? I wonder how some people are going to cope when that happens.
RickD wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:49 am
Living in Florida, I may be able to go see Brady in Tampa, if the tickets aren’t too expensive.

I already can see the Red Sox play there.
Sounds like what you're saying is that you condone Trump's behavior, but for some reason you don't wish to defend it.

And I'd be happy to discuss Tom Brady and the Sox in one of those friendly chit chat areas. This space is labeled Politics and World Events.
*I can’t help but wish Brady well in Tampa, even though I’m not a Bucs fan. I just hope the Pats can make the season interesting.





*I’ve said it before, and I say it again in case you forgot...I voted for Trump for one reason...he isn’t Hillary. I don’t have any interest in defending nor condoning Trump’s tweets.

The guy is a narcissist, just like Obama, only moreso. The difference between them, is that in public, Obama was more politically correct. Obama acted in public, like people thought a President should act.

The real issue we all need to think about here, is how easily the govt was able to shut down the economy.

Doesn’t anyone else see that?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
edwardmurphy
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2302
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 196 times
Been liked: 134 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#10

Post by edwardmurphy » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:45 pm

RickD wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:18 am
I’ve said it before, and I say it again in case you forgot...I voted for Trump for one reason...he isn’t Hillary. I don’t have any interest in defending nor condoning Trump’s tweets.
If that's your only criteria does that mean that you'll be voting for Biden? He's also not Hillary.
RickD wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:18 am
The guy is a narcissist, just like Obama, only moreso. The difference between them, is that in public, Obama was more politically correct. Obama acted in public, like people thought a President should act.
Anybody who makes a career out of self-promotion with the ultimate goal of being in charge of everything is a narcissist. Humble people don't run for President.

It seems to me that what matters is behavior. The GOP, which had control of Congress for most of Obama's tenure, would have absolutely loved to nail him on corruption, or violating the emoluments clause, or sexual assault/misconduct, or anything else at all. To me the fact that they weren't even able to try is strong evidence that he didn't do those things. You might not have liked him or his policies, but there's no evidence that he was a corrupt, amoral criminal.

The things that I've said about Trump has been fact checked. I'm not posting Facebook rumors or dishonest memes from anti-Trump blogs. I'm not posting the petty attacks on his appearance or the pictures of him under an umbrella while Melania stands in the rain. I'm sticking to things that are real, current, and extremely significant.

The statements that I've really slammed Trump for aren't things that can be brushed off as whining about Trump not being politically correct, either. He said that the US was suspending trade with Europe, causing the Dow Jones futures market to crash while he was speaking. He encouraged his supporters to gather to protest social distancing during a pandemic. That's not being "politically incorrect," it's being dangerously inattentive and irresponsible. It's deliberately stoking division at a time when we desperately need to pull together. The President had a responsibility to shut that [poop] down, but instead he fanned the flames.
RickD wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:18 am
The real issue we all need to think about here, is how easily the govt was able to shut down the economy.

Doesn’t anyone else see that?
Not really.

The Feds could have used the DPA to basically take over key industries from the base of the supply chain all the way to distribution, but they didn't. A lot of businesses are still open, and a lot of the decisions to close have either been voluntary or initiated by state or local governments. None of them want to shut down the economy. Restaurants and stores here are still open, mostly doing online and phone sales with curbside pickup.

What would have happened if we hadn't started enforced social distancing? The number of confirmed infections is currently rising by 30,000 a day even with the majority of us trying to isolate ourselves. Hopefully that's the result of the long incubation period and we'll see a sharp fall-off soon, but then I've also been reading about people in South Korea and China who have been infected, treated, and released but are still testing positive. Whether or not they're still contagious is an open question.

Unfortunately, we now have organized protests (that look just like Trump rallies) cropping up all over the place, so I guess we'll have the opportunity to find out what happens if a bunch of angry morons decide that self quarantining is fascism. My prediction is that some of those morons will contract the coronavirus while they're doofing around in the city, and then they'll bring it back to their wholesome, right-thinking, all-American communities, and then people there will die.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21642
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 1109 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#11

Post by RickD » Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:53 pm

Ed wrote:
If that's your only criteria does that mean that you'll be voting for Biden? He's also not Hillary.
At the time of the election, there were two possible options, one of which would be president. I didn’t particularly like either, so I voted for the lesser of two evils. If Hillary were somehow running against Bernie, and they were the only two options, I still would’ve voted for the lesser of two evils. In that case, it would’ve been Hillary.
Anybody who makes a career out of self-promotion with the ultimate goal of being in charge of everything is a narcissist. Humble people don't run for President.
I don’t agree. There are plenty of people who aren’t narcissistic, that ran for president.
It seems to me that what matters is behavior. The GOP, which had control of Congress for most of Obama's tenure, would have absolutely loved to nail him on corruption, or violating the emoluments clause, or sexual assault/misconduct, or anything else at all. To me the fact that they weren't even able to try is strong evidence that he didn't do those things. You might not have liked him or his policies, but there's no evidence that he was a corrupt, amoral criminal.
Amoral? What is your basis for morality?
The things that I've said about Trump has been fact checked. I'm not posting Facebook rumors or dishonest memes from anti-Trump blogs. I'm not posting the petty attacks on his appearance or the pictures of him under an umbrella while Melania stands in the rain. I'm sticking to things that are real, current, and extremely significant.
Significant to you. That’s fine. But again, you never brought up these kids of significant things here, when Obama was president. It never occurred to you to rail about Obama when he lied? Or, is a lying president not really an issue with you?
What would have happened if we hadn't started enforced social distancing? The number of confirmed infections is currently rising by 30,000 a day even with the majority of us trying to isolate ourselves. Hopefully that's the result of the long incubation period and we'll see a sharp fall-off soon, but then I've also been reading about people in South Korea and China who have been infected, treated, and released but are still testing positive. Whether or not they're still contagious is an open question.
As I work in a hospital, my perspective may be a little different than yours. But speaking with multiple nurses, and higher ups, including the infection control specialist, and with knowing what we know now:
1) this virus seems to be very contagious

2) the mortality rate seems to be extremely low

3) the more info we get, the more it seems like a large percentage of people who test positive, have no symptoms whatsoever.

Up until recently in my hospital, we didn’t have to wear masks, and we certainly didn’t practice social distancing, and out of well over 1500 employees, there hasn’t been a single employee who has tested positive for the virus as of now.

So, what would’ve happened? Probably more people would’ve been infected, including many without symptoms, and the economy wouldn’t be in the $hitter. But since we didn’t know what we know now, we should end these shut downs asap.
Unfortunately, we now have organized protests (that look just like Trump rallies) cropping up all over the place, so I guess we'll have the opportunity to find out what happens if a bunch of angry morons decide that self quarantining is fascism. My prediction is that some of those morons will contract the coronavirus while they're doofing around in the city, and then they'll bring it back to their wholesome, right-thinking, all-American communities, and then people there will die.
It’s not self quarantining, when governors and mayors close down businesses, and don’t allow people in certain public places.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Hortator
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 5:00 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ohio
Has liked: 117 times
Been liked: 58 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#12

Post by Hortator » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:28 pm

Worthy of reposting
Philip wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:08 am
Ed, if you'll notice, after B.W. left, few here are rabidly on about politics. In fact, with the forum's stated purpose to be about ifluencing people to discover Christ, I"m pretty uncomfortable when it's so often about politics. But when your posts are so filled with an obsession and intense criticisms almost entirely concerning the president and his party - and rarely any serious criticisms about your favored party and its politicians - well, it comes off as a hyper bias and an obsession. This always concerns me about people whom are always on about politics - not terribly different from that one obsessed with Q. Politicians are humans - they all have many flaws. So, when I see someone just on about this or that group, but clearly defensive or silent upon their own favorites, well - it just comes off as relentless and not very balanced.

User avatar
edwardmurphy
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2302
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 196 times
Been liked: 134 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#13

Post by edwardmurphy » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:50 pm

And yet again it's easier to call me biased and irrational than to defend the behavior that I'm criticizing. Think about that, Hortense. If I'm the one who's full of [poop] then why is everyone changing the subject rather than leaping to the President's defense? If Trump was right to encourage mass protests then say so and support your position. If he wasn't then admit it. This isn't about me, it's about current events.

BTW, I just read that the protests, which are now popping up all over the place, are being funded and at least partially coordinated by major right wing donors and political activists. So yeah, the right is pushing for people to march in the streets during a pandemic.

It's almost funny, really. If I was one of those rabidly partisan, win-at-all-costs, left wing extremists looking to weaken conservative America I'd be trying to get small town conservatives to gather in major cities, pick up the virus, and bring it back to the Heartland. But I'm not actually a hateful, sociopathic monster, so I'm just sitting here shocked, watching the conservatives do that to themselves.

What a world this has become...

Hortator
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 5:00 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ohio
Has liked: 117 times
Been liked: 58 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#14

Post by Hortator » Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:17 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:50 pm
Think about that, Hortense. If I'm the one who's full of [poop] then why is everyone changing the subject rather than leaping to the President's defense?
We're not, we just don't want to you.

However, I might volunteer to if you paid me with a gift card.

I can digitally accept these. Buying prepaid visa cards at corner stores are pretty convenient. PM me the details, I will need the CCN / CVC / Expiry + the exact dollar amount on the card. We can come to an agreement on price privately if you so choose; make me an offer.

(Try to avoid Walmart-brand debit cards and American Express "Serve" cards because they're a pain in the butt to setup.)

Do that, and I will match my word count with your word count in replies. I'll even do it line by line, bullet points, works cited, the whole 9 yards. Heck, even if you send me a visa gift card with $0.01 on it, I'll oblige because it would get a serious chuckle out of me.

User avatar
edwardmurphy
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2302
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 196 times
Been liked: 134 times

Re: Convinced yet...?

#15

Post by edwardmurphy » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:00 pm

Give me your address, Hortense. I'd be happy to send you something.

Post Reply