So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#91

Post by RickD » Sat May 11, 2019 6:51 pm

DBowling wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:38 pm
Philip wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 1:25 pm
Point is, was your vote about YOU and your noble pride, or was it about making a tough choice that could save lives. One just can't justify throwing away a vote like that. Sorry, I hate to be so critical, but that's how strongly I feel about the sanctity of life!
I appreciate your passion for life and I share that passion...
But to be blunt, your assertion about throwing away my vote, is basically an untrue strawman.

The point for me is really simple.
As a follower of Jesus, which candidate best represented my political and moral values (which included which candidate had the best pro-life credentials).
For me, it wasn't even close.
The two major candidates were immediately disqualified for me because of their political positions and deeply rooted corruption.

So I found a candidate who I could actually support both politically and morally (he wasn't perfect but he was easily better than the two main candidates).

Jesus doesn't ask me to follow what the world thinks.
Jesus doesn't ask me to make decisions based on who I think will or will not win (that's not in my hands anyway).
Jesus asks me to make decisions that are consistent with being his follower.
And sometimes those decisions will be misrepresented and unpopular.
But I was convinced that it would not be honoring to Jesus (which is what matters in the end) if I, as his follower, associated myself with politicians as fundamentally dishonest and corrupt as Clinton and Trump.

Do all Christians share my view?
Of course not.
And that's ok.
As this Discussion Board clearly shows, the Lord does not lead us all down the same path.
Prov 3:5-6
So....

You refused to vote for a sinful man(Trump), and a sinful woman(Hillary). And instead voted for a sinful man(Egg McMuffin) that doesn't believe Christ is God.

I'd say you made a great, moral choice!

So, tell me again how Egg McMuffin is less sinful than Trump or Hillary....
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#92

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon May 13, 2019 7:08 am

If you don't vote for someone because they are sinner, well...you will NEVER vote for anyone.

If you don't vote for someone because they do NOT share YOUR moral values, that I can understand.
If you do not vote for someone because they do not share your economical values or whatever, sure, I can understand.

As a Christian, I don't see how you can vote for someone that is pro choice however since a Christian MUST be pro life.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#93

Post by edwardmurphy » Mon May 13, 2019 2:25 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 7:08 am
a Christian MUST be pro life.
So what does that mean for the millions of Christians who are pro-choice?
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#94

Post by Philip » Mon May 13, 2019 7:08 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:25 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 7:08 am
a Christian MUST be pro life.
So what does that mean for the millions of Christians who are pro-choice?
First, we must define who is NOT a Christian - which includes millions who are merely cultural ones, that aren't truly committed to Christ and don't believe in the Gospel / Resurrection. Of true believers, there are some who are pro-choice. But these do NOT have a belief in the sanctity of life made in God's image, as the Bible teaches. Following the teachings of Christ is a spiritual mandate - and not a political / societal one. We live in a Democracy, and people - even those with contradictory or deceived spiritual beliefs - can make up their own minds about this issue. But what one embracing abortion can never do is claim to be following the Bible concerning this issue.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#95

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue May 14, 2019 6:30 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:25 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 7:08 am
a Christian MUST be pro life.
So what does that mean for the millions of Christians who are pro-choice?
They have to justify, before God, why life means less than choice.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#96

Post by edwardmurphy » Tue May 14, 2019 6:57 am

Does the Bible flat-out state that life begins at the moment of conception and that terminating a pregnancy is wrong, or is that more a matter of interpretation? If it's the latter - and I'm pretty sure it is - then why is your interpretation more valid than the interpretations of more liberal Christians?

This is the problem with religion - it usually comes down to interpretation. Consequently there are hundreds of different denominations, all pushing their own interpretations of whatever dogma they follow, all believing with unshakable confidence that they're the ones getting it right.

As an outsider looking in it all seems like everybody is engaged in some degree of special pleading.

Also, if the religious right is sincerely concerned about abortion then why are they focusing almost all of their effort on forcing mothers to carry unplanned, unwanted pregnancies to term rather than on helping women avoid unplanned pregnancies in the first place? The result is the same, so what's the problem?

Honestly, Phil, I don't think it's really about protecting life. I think that for a lot of activists the baby is penance and the primary goal is to prevent loose women from getting away with their sinful behavior. If that's not the case then why do anti-abortion activists look at the entire list of proven methods for reducing abortion rates and literally reject everything but an outright ban? Why are they opposed to proactive prevention methods? Why does their interest seem to evaporate the second the baby crowns?

Can you see how the whole thing might seem really insincere?
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#97

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue May 14, 2019 10:47 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:57 am
Does the Bible flat-out state that life begins at the moment of conception and that terminating a pregnancy is wrong, or is that more a matter of interpretation? If it's the latter - and I'm pretty sure it is - then why is your interpretation more valid than the interpretations of more liberal Christians?

This is the problem with religion - it usually comes down to interpretation. Consequently there are hundreds of different denominations, all pushing their own interpretations of whatever dogma they follow, all believing with unshakable confidence that they're the ones getting it right.

As an outsider looking in it all seems like everybody is engaged in some degree of special pleading.

Also, if the religious right is sincerely concerned about abortion then why are they focusing almost all of their effort on forcing mothers to carry unplanned, unwanted pregnancies to term rather than on helping women avoid unplanned pregnancies in the first place? The result is the same, so what's the problem?

Honestly, Phil, I don't think it's really about protecting life. I think that for a lot of activists the baby is penance and the primary goal is to prevent loose women from getting away with their sinful behavior. If that's not the case then why do anti-abortion activists look at the entire list of proven methods for reducing abortion rates and literally reject everything but an outright ban? Why are they opposed to proactive prevention methods? Why does their interest seem to evaporate the second the baby crowns?

Can you see how the whole thing might seem really insincere?
Outside of capital punishment, Taking a life is ONLY justified outside of Murder ( Thou shall not murder)
What does that mean?
That the taking of a life is ONLY justified when another life is in danger.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#98

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue May 14, 2019 10:50 am

You do understand that the PRO-Life movement is NOT against abortion per say, but against unrestricted abortion and what I mean is that you will not find any pro-choice advocate against terminating a pregnancy that will kill the mother.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#99

Post by Philip » Tue May 14, 2019 10:56 am

Ed, you shouldn't try to argue for a Biblical understanding, as you don't even know (or truly care) what the Bible says about it. And the interpretations of the passages that are relevant aren't obscured by language, culture, or forced literalisms. Do a search on G&S - there are plenty of threads detailing the relevant Scriptures.

And you can set up your strawman stereotypes of why whatever Christians are against abortion, but you should never doubt that millions of Christians around the world hate abortion because they believe life is God-given and that only in defense (per attack, war, one's life is threatened) is it to be deliberately taken. And vast millions of Christians DO care about women in tough situations that are pregnant or taking care of one or more children. But some don't, or they merely view it politically - but I'd say that would be a very small percentage of Christians truly desiring to follow Christ's teachings.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#100

Post by Kurieuo » Tue May 14, 2019 4:32 pm

Can you make a scientific case that the unborn child isn't a human life Ed?

Or is it more the case you accept that the unborn is obviously human life, but simply don't care? If its legal, and no one isn't going to get in trouble, then why not just get rid of the human life noone values and be done with it. Especially if by getting rid of the baby one can avoid inconveniencing their own plans in life. So why not?

This sounds to me like a if I can get away with it, then why not scenario.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#101

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed May 15, 2019 7:20 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:32 pm
Can you make a scientific case that the unborn child isn't a human life Ed?

Or is it more the case you accept that the unborn is obviously human life, but simply don't care? If its legal, and no one isn't going to get in trouble, then why not just get rid of the human life noone values and be done with it. Especially if by getting rid of the baby one can avoid inconveniencing their own plans in life. So why not?

This sounds to me like a if I can get away with it, then why not scenario.
Life begins at conception, if there is no life there is no pregnancy.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#102

Post by edwardmurphy » Thu May 16, 2019 8:04 pm

I haven't forgotten you guys. Just been busy. And I can never resist B.W.'s siren song. Just intoxicating, y'know? Anyway, don't take it personally. I'll respond to your posts in a day or two.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#103

Post by edwardmurphy » Fri May 17, 2019 2:47 pm

Ok, here goes.
Philip wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 10:56 am
Ed, you shouldn't try to argue for a Biblical understanding, as you don't even know (or truly care) what the Bible says about it. And the interpretations of the passages that are relevant aren't obscured by language, culture, or forced literalisms. Do a search on G&S - there are plenty of threads detailing the relevant Scriptures.
I don't have the time to dig too deeply on the forums, but I read the pro-life page on the Evidence of God from Science main site.

BTW, Webmaster K, if there's a direct link from the forums to the main site I can't find it. Is that intentional?

Anyway...
When does life begin?

Many Christians believe that the Bible is silent in regard to God's view on life before birth. Although the Bible does not specifically define when life begins, it does give us enough information to formulate a solid biblical position.
In other words, the idea that life begins at conception is the preferred interpretation of some Christians, but the Bible doesn't actually say one way or the other. Therefore anyone who states that life begins at conception is stating their own opinion, not the word of God.

This, by the way, is my primary criticism of every religion I've come across - most adherents claim certainty, but if you dig down a quarter inch it turns out that "the truth" is actually just one interpretation of an ambiguous statement. Why do gods tend to allow so much ambiguity in their communication? That makes no sense to me.
The sayings of Jesus

Jesus demonstrated the love of God for children often during His ministry. In one passage, Jesus took a child to him and sat with him. He said, "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 18:10). Jesus tells us not to despise or look down upon the least powerful and significant (by human standards) of humans.
Ok, Jesus liked kids. That makes sense - I mostly like them, too. That said, it seems pretty clear that Jesus is talking about actual kids - the postpartum rug rats that were running around his followers' houses. This statement is only about abortion if you presuppose that Jesus believes that a fetus is a human child. He might believe that, but this quote gives no guidance whatsoever on when precisely a fetus becomes a human.
Old Testament law

The Old Testament provides most of the information on God's view of life before birth, since it gives us the law. The law specifically addresses the issue of taking the life of a fetus in the book of Exodus:

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." (Exodus 21:22-23)
If the fetus is regarded as a human being then there's "serious injury" - a child was killed. The punishment should be death - life for life. But that's not the case. The punishment is a fine. Life for life doesn't come into play unless the mother is killed.

It seems to me that causing a miscarriage is treated as a property crime, while injuring or killing a woman (or at least a man's wife) is treated much more seriously. That strongly implies that a fetus and a human being aren't regarded as being equivalent.
Therefore, the law tells us that a man who induces an abortion or miscarriage is to be punished, indicating that God values life before birth.
The hell it does! It doesn't say a single word about abortion, only about a miscarriage caused by another's recklessness. That claim isn't interpretation, it's fabrication. Whoever wrote this page just made that up.
Human life begins in the womb

The Bible tells us God is involved in our creation from the womb:

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)

Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalm 22:9-10)

For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalm 139:13-16)

Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, `Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. (Isaiah 44:2)

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone, (Isaiah 44:24)
Well, duh. Of course life begins in the womb. We all know that. There's zero debate. But there's nothing here about when. It certainly doesn't make any specific statements about fertilization, implantation, or fetal maturity. So again, it comes down to interpretation. Thus the people who insist that life begins at conception are just shouting their opinion. Their opinion is no more valid than mine, so why should theirs have the force of law?
Human vs. animal

God distinguishes between human life and animal life, since the killing of animals has been allowed by God from as early as just after the fall.5 It would be helpful to first define what makes human life different from that of the animals. The Bible says that God created three kinds of creatures:

Creatures which possess bodies (Hebrew - basar, Greek - swma) only
Creatures which possess bodies and souls (Hebrew - nephesh, Greek - psuchay)
Creatures which possess bodies, souls, and spirits (Hebrew - ruach, Greek - pneuma)
Most of God's creatures possess bodies only. These creatures include the insects, worms, fish, etc. God defines the creatures possessing souls as being the birds, the whales, the predatory and domesticated land mammals, and human beings (Genesis 1:20-27). Creatures which possess a soul have the characteristics of having a mind, a will, and emotion. Most of us who have cats or dogs realize that these soulish creatures have all these character traits.

Therefore, the difference between human life and animal life is that, in addition to having a body and soul, we are endowed with a spirit, (1 Thessalonians 5:23), by which we can communicate with, love, and worship God. The Bible tells us that God forms this spirit within us,6 and we are endowed with a spirit before birth (Luke 1:15), which makes us fully human before we are born.
Fine. God gives us spirits before we're born. Fertilization happens before we're born. So does crowning. So do a ton on intermediate steps. So when precisely does God add the spirit? It doesn't say, so we're back to interpretation.
Prophets called from the womb

In addition, there are a number of great men of God (and Jesus) who were called to be God's servants from the womb:

Samson:

Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, "A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name. "But he said to me, `Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'" (Judges 13:6-7, see also Judges 16:17)
Jesus (prophecy):

Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. (Isaiah 49:1)
And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), (Isaiah 49:5)
Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalm 22:9-10)
Jeremiah:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)
John the Baptist:

"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)
Paul:

But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased (Galatians 1:15)
In addition, the Bible tells us the wicked are estranged or enemies of God from the womb:

The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. (Psalm 58:3)
See my last point.
What is murder?

All of the above verses tell us God considers us to be human before we are born, but they don't answer the question of when we actually become so. I propose there is a way to know what God considers the latest point in development at which we must consider a fetus to be a living human. Even before God gave Moses the law, when He gave Noah and his family all the animals for food (in addition to the plants), He told them, "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood" (Genesis 9:4). At the same time, God gave the law and penalty for murder (described as the shedding of "man's blood").7 Therefore, God considers blood to be the basis for life and the shedding of human blood, which results in death, to be murder. Science tells us that the heart of the human fetus begins to form 18 days after conception.8 There is a measurable heart beat 21-24 days after conception.9 Since blood is flowing at this point, it is likely that blood formation begins well before day 21 (I could find no reference for the date at which blood formation begins). Therefore, this represents the latest date at which we must consider the fetus to be human (according to biblical standards), which is only 7-10 days after a women would expect to begin her menses. Most women have cycles that can vary by this amount, and therefore do not discover they are pregnant until after this point. For all practical purposes, from a biblical perspective, abortion at any point must be considered murder by Bible-believing Christians.
I find this proposal rather dubious. For starters, back in Exodus there was an opportunity to treat the destruction of a fetus as murder, but instead it was treated more like a property crime.

Also, if "the shedding of blood that results in death" is the literal definition of murder then there are no exceptions for shedding blood in self defense or during war. IIRC that directly contradicts a bunch of other stuff in the OT.

Beyond that, if we're going to be completely literal in this instance then for the sake of consistency we need to be completely literal everywhere else.

So apparently:

1) There's a passage that can be interpreted as implying that abortion is murder - if blood is spilled during the procedure.

2) If the doctor is very skilled and extracts the fetus without drawing blood then the abortion is not murder.

3) Abortion prior to the formation of fetal blood is definitely not murder. Therefore human life definitely does not begin at conception.

The law of unintended consequences in action...
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 10:50 am
You do understand that the PRO-Life movement is NOT against abortion per say, but against unrestricted abortion and what I mean is that you will not find any pro-choice advocate against terminating a pregnancy that will kill the mother.
I've never come across anyone in favor of unrestricted abortion. Late-term abortion is only an option if carrying the pregnancy to term will do serious harm the mother or if the fetus has an untreatable, fatal condition. The claim that liberals want to murder babies is a vicious, evil, irresponsible lie.

Allowing the termination of a pregnancy only going to term will kill the mother is draconian government overreach.

BTW, I read somewhere that Canada has no abortion laws per se, and that abortion is a medical issue and is between a woman and her doctor. Is that accurate? I've also read that the abortion rate is far lower in Canada than in the US. If that's true it would be a very interesting statistic.
Kurieuo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:32 pm
Can you make a scientific case that the unborn child isn't a human life Ed?
Me personally? No. I'm not a scientist. All I can tell you is that there's no scientific consensus on the matter.

Personally, I think that the fetus becomes a child at the point of viability. Once it can life on its own, outside the womb it ceases to be a potential person and becomes a person. I also think that abortion is a medical issue and should be between a woman and her doctor.
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:20 am
Life begins at conception, if there is no life there is no pregnancy.
According to the modern medical establishment between 40% and 60% of blastocytes (aka fertilized eggs) fail to implant and are discharged. If your contention is correct then a blastocyte is a human being. That means that half of all humans are created, endowed with spirits, ejected with the rest of the feminine discharge, tossed in the hamper, and washed away on laundry day.

Somehow that doesn't seem right, but that's where the evidence leads me.
Last edited by edwardmurphy on Fri May 17, 2019 3:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#104

Post by edwardmurphy » Fri May 17, 2019 2:49 pm

BTW, when you guys tell me that I'm wrong I'd appreciate it if you'd try to attach your specific arguments to specific things I said, rather than quoting the whole mess.

It's just a request, B.W. Relax.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#105

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sun May 19, 2019 9:29 am

Just so ya'll know Donald Trump just tweeted out his views on his pro-life stance and how pro lifers must unite or else we could lose all that we have gained.This video is about 13 minutes long.The part of the video that shows Trump's tweets about pro life is at about the 1:15 part of this video.
Distractions Distractions.
https://youtu.be/LInpdyRKWD8
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