So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#16

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat May 04, 2019 6:00 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:55 am
Abe, the information is easy to find if you sincerely want to find it.
As well, [Barr's] argument goes, so long as presidential interference in an investigation is grounded in the Constitution and is not "corrupt" -- the word in the federal obstruction of justice statute -- it is not prosecutable.

The nearly universal view of law enforcement, however, rejects Barr's narrow view of obstruction and interprets the plain meaning of the federal statute as it was written. Thus, under this view, all corrupt interference or attempted interference with an investigation or judicial proceeding constitutes obstruction. A corrupt purpose is one that seeks personal gain for the obstructer, such as shielding him from the revelation of unpleasant truths.

So, if Trump fired FBI Director James Comey because Trump wanted to be the tallest person in the room or because he had a better director candidate in mind, there is no corrupt purpose. But if he fired Comey to delay or stop the FBI's acquisition of painful truths about Russia, as he told NBC's Lester Holt was his purpose, then whether the truths he wants to hide are about unlawful behavior or not, Trump's purpose is corrupt and his behavior is prosecutable.

As well, if the pre-presidential Trump instructed retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn to tell the Russian ambassador that Trump would relax sanctions on Russian banks and oligarchs once in office -- as Flynn told Mueller was the case -- Trump's efforts to hide that truth from FBI investigators constitute obstruction. And, if Trump lied to the public about the communications between his campaign and the Trump Organization and the Russians -- he said there were none -- and he tried to prevent the FBI from learning about the 127 communications, Trump's purpose is corrupt.

Asking Deputy National Security Adviser K.T. McFarland to put an untruthful document about Flynn's conversation with the Russian ambassador into a government file that is likely to be subpoenaed and asking White House Counsel Don McGahn to lie to FBI agents are acts of obstruction. They constituted ordering subordinates to commit crimes for a corrupt purpose -- shielding Trump from the revelation of unpleasant truths about his behavior.

We know that Attorney General Barr's own DOJ rejects its boss' narrow view of obstruction because of an indictment it announced just last week. A federal grand jury in Boston indicted a sitting judge of the Superior Court of Massachusetts for obstruction of justice. Her crime? She allegedly told the ICE agents in her courtroom to arrest a defendant appearing in front of her that the defendant would be released from her custody in the courthouse lobby.

When sheriff's officers instead released him to the courthouse parking lot, and the defendant escaped, the judge was accused of obstructing justice even though it is legally impossible for her to have committed the underlying crime that ICE was prosecuting -- illegal reentry into the U.S. by a once-deported and undocumented immigrant.

The U.S. is planted thick with laws intended to preserve human freedom by keeping the government honest. When the government breaks its own laws and gets away with it, it undermines the personal liberty of us all.

~ Conservative Republican and longtime FOX News Contributor Judge Andrew Napolitano (who Trump fans now, hilariously, insist is a Democrat)
There's solid evidence of obstruction of justice. Mueller didn't attempt to prosecute because the DOJ rules prevented him from doing so. DOJ policy is that criminal wrongdoing by a sitting President should be dealt with via a political process (impeachment) rather than in the courts.Trump was not exonerated of obstruction. In fact, it's the complete opposite - Mueller reported a ton of evidence that Trump absolutely, definitely, 100% obstructed justice. He did it. Period.

Trump's not likely to be impeached because, as we all know, the Senate Republicans won't convict him. Impeachment would most likely be a political gift, because he'd be able to spin a Senate acquittal as exoneration. I hope that we can all agree that being acquitted because all of your buddies are on the jury isn't the same as being acquitted because you're innocent.

Regarding collusion, here are some direct quotes from the Mueller Report:
RUSSIAN CONTACTS WITH THE CAMPAIGN

The social media campaign and the GRU hacking operations coincided with a series of contacts between Trump Campaign officials and individuals with ties to the Russian government. The Office investigated whether those contacts reflected or resulted in the Campaign conspiring or coordinating with Russia in its election-interference activities. Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.
We understood coordination to require an agreement — tacit or express — between the Trump Campaign and the Russian government on election interference. That requires more than the two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to the other’s actions or interests. We applied the term coordination in that sense when stating in the report that the investigation did not establish that the Trump Campaign coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.
In other words, the Russians favored Trump as a candidate and Trump happily used information that he knew had been stolen by the Russians to benefit his campaign, while simultaneously insisting that there was no evidence of any Russian hacking - a position he maintained for most of the first half of his presidency, despite the entire American intelligence community saying the exact opposite the whole time.

Mueller can't prove that Trump and the Russians ever managed to actually sit down and hammer out a quid pro quo agreement, only that they repeatedly tried, but were unable to do so. Therefore the Trump Campaign's actions do not reach the level of a conspiracy. So Trump and the Russians simultaneously worked toward a common purpose and played off of each others' actions to achieve that purpose without ever technically working together.

Trump and the Russians had basically the same relationship that political candidates have with friendly super PACS - they're not allowed to coordinate, but there's nothing stopping a candidate from going on television to muse aloud about the kind of assistance he'd like to recieve if anyone was inclined to help out. Kind of like this:



Russia was listening. They attacked Clinton's email that very day, just like Trump hoped they would.

So it's not technically coordination, but it sure seems coordinated...

Who's okay with that?
I've heard all of the spin coming out of the MSM concerning the Mueller report who lied and told us the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians and the Mueller team was going to prove it and Trump would be impeached. So how you can continue to believe people who got everything wrong is mind boggling.Mueller not only had the power to look into Russia collusion but he also had powers to look into other areas too that have nothing to do with colluding with Russia and he did not find anything.Don't forget Mueller got General Flynn,Papadopolous,Roger Stone,Paul Manafort for crimes that had nothing to do with colluding with Russia and yet found nothing on Trump,not even lying to investigator's,etc in order to bring charges against Trump as he could have.

And the fact the Democrats in the House are still investigating Trump,looking into his finances,his tax records,etc proves that they have absolutely nothing on Trump,but are looking for anything to try to get rid of him.The bottom line is there must be a crime in order to have obstruction of justice and there is not one. So there can be no obstruction of justice.Further more I told you that when the Mueller report comes out it will show no collusion with Russia, as happened. I even explained to you why and yet no matter how many times I give you correct info that turns out to be correct you ignore it and believe people in the MSM who have been lying for over two years about this. This is you believing what you want to hear.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#17

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat May 04, 2019 6:48 am

Philip wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:32 am
Trump felt he was surrounded by baying wolves intent upon proving he colluded to swing an election his way. And his early months of his cabinet and inner circle were chaotic, leakers everywhere. That Trump turned NY street fighter to defend himself is understandably instinctive, but wrong. But as for the original investigation of collusion with the Russians - that was THE foaming-at-the-mouth impetus that originally drove things. And I don't believe he did - not only because Muller didn't find it, but because there are a huge number of people out there who wanted to take Trump down. And if such proof existed, you can bet someone or some group who had any supposed dirt on him would have quickly forwarded all they knew to the Mueller team. Now, were Trump's team meeting with people they shouldn't have been - sure. They probably merely wanted to know if there was any usable dirt on Hilary or the Democratic Party. Just like Hillary's team paid to find helpful research (for DIRT!) on Trump.
I agree with your view on it. However I think people are overlooking something far far more serious and dangerous than people getting upset over how Trump fights back and it seems to rub them the wrong way. But the precedent the Democrats in the House and people on the left who support the Democrat Party are setting is very dangerous and is something we should not overlook.You claim that Trump is setting a bad precedent with how he fights back and the things he sometimes says to political foes but although it may bother you is not a crime. However the precedent the Democrat Party is setting is far far more dangerous and is something we cannot allow and it is this.

It is the fact that we as Americans have privacy rights as the law must have evidence and a legal warrant to investigate us for a crime and due process before we can be investigated for a crime or spied on. We are innocent until proven in a court of law in a legal way as I nor a group of people cannot and should not just be allowed to believe you or I committed a crime and illegally investigate us for a crime they believe we committed.

Yet the left and Democratic Party are setting a very scary and dangerous precedent accusing President Trump of a crime he supposedly committed that they have not found yet,but if they continue to investigate unempeded will find a crime to get rid of President Trump. This is scary and dangerous for us as Americans and we need to pay attention very closely to what it going on because the precedent they are setting is very scary and dangerous.We cannot allow the Democrats to suspend our privacy rights and illegally investigate us for a crime to bust us with because they have Trump Derangement Syndrome.

You know Donald Trump is not some new person we don't know about as he has been in the public eye as an American businessman for 40 years plus and was never caught up in any serious scandals nor was ever arrested for any serious crimes. Although he was sued and he sued people too through the years they were all settled legally in a court of law.But no arrests for any serious crimes and no serious scandals.It is like those on the left were living under a rock before Donald Trump ran for President.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#18

Post by edwardmurphy » Sat May 04, 2019 7:39 am

Read the report, Abe. Stop getting your news from YouTube pundits and look for yourself.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#19

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat May 04, 2019 8:45 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 7:39 am
Read the report, Abe. Stop getting your news from YouTube pundits and look for yourself.
I am looking at the evidence myself and there is no crime which means there can be no obstruction of justice. I see the spin in the MSM and NAP is repeating it for some reason but I can read the Mueller report myself and do not need a news reporter to read it for me to tell me what it says and I can see there is no crime.All of this spin in the MSM will be proven wrong when Trump declassifies the FISA information. It is even going to be shown how the MSM is and has been working directly with the Democrat Party pushing this Russia collusion myth.With video,e-mail communication,etc. This is treason and sedition too, which are Federal crimes.It is also a federal crime to leak classified information James Comey and Adam Schiff.

Why would I do that? It is you who are wrong most of the time,not me. I get my news from people who know what is going on,which is why I am more right than you.I knew months ago from following Q what the Mueller report was going to show and why and I was right.I told you Mueller was saving himself and is cooperating with investigators because of Uranium 1.The Q team was controlling both Rod Rosenstein who appointed Robert Mueller and Robert Mueller the whole time.While you all thought Mueller was going to nail Trump.You were wrong getting your hopes up that Trump was going to be removed from office,not me. I( have been saying the whole time Trump will not be impeached and never even believed the MSM like you. Like I said before you like to be lied to and you like to get your hopes up for nothing,yet you take it as an insult when I say this instead of realizing I'm trying to get you to ignore the MSM and think for yourself and use logic like Q tells us to do and research yourself and look for more credible people giving the news.But only you can choose to do it. It took my awhile to narrow it down to the news I trust the most.

Sedition - https://www.google.com/search?q=seditio ... e&ie=UTF-8
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#20

Post by edwardmurphy » Sat May 04, 2019 3:30 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:45 am
I am looking at the evidence myself and there is no crime which means there can be no obstruction of justice.
Either you don't understand the law or you read well. Napolitano gave a specific example if the current DOJ charging somebody with obstruction when they'd had nothing whatsoever to do with the underlying crime. I posted it. Scroll up. It's still there. You are wrong.

They're still lying to you, Abe. Still making you look like a stooge...
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#21

Post by abelcainsbrother » Mon May 06, 2019 6:11 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 3:30 pm
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:45 am
I am looking at the evidence myself and there is no crime which means there can be no obstruction of justice.
Either you don't understand the law or you read well. Napolitano gave a specific example if the current DOJ charging somebody with obstruction when they'd had nothing whatsoever to do with the underlying crime. I posted it. Scroll up. It's still there. You are wrong.

They're still lying to you, Abe. Still making you look like a stooge...
We'll see.You'll be proven wrong again and I'm going to remind you.If there was a crime even other than colluding with Russia Mueller would have said so and he did'nt.Instead,you ignored me and believed the lie they reported for two plus years Trump colluded with the Russians,after me warning you not to.Therefore you and Nap are wrong. You should not have believed the MSM for these two years as I told you to believe the opposite of what they say. I'll be proven right when it is proven it was the Obama adminstration that committed treason and sedition and colluded with the Russians selling 20% of US Uranium to Russia. Mueller was the delivery man who delivered a sample of the Uranium to Russia and knows all about it and he is cooperating with investigaters.Like I've said believe the opposite of what the MSM claims. You'll learn the hard way again,not me.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#22

Post by edwardmurphy » Mon May 06, 2019 6:42 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:11 pm
If there was a crime even other than colluding with Russia Mueller would have said so and he did'nt.
Spoken like a guy who didn't read the report. Mueller outlined a slew of obstruction of justice charges. He didn't file any because the DOJ won't charge a sitting President with a crime.

Just because you let other people do all of your thinking doesn't mean we all do it that way.
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:11 pm
You'll learn the hard way again,not me.
The only lesson you've taught me in all these years is that it's pointless to take you off mute.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#23

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue May 07, 2019 9:47 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:41 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:07 am
Democrats still putting their eggs in that basket eh?
I'm not a Democrat but I can tell you that, no, it's not their only basket.

So are you saying that if you were American the contents of the Mueller Report wouldn't be a problem for you?

Or the fact that Mueller reports that there's extremely strong evidence that Trump committed felony obstruction of justice on 10+ occasions?

Or the fact that Barr's summary strongly favored the President's narrative, even though the actual report did not? Is it okay for the US AG to mislead the public for political reasons?

Do you feel that the President is/should be above the law?
I'm saying that IF the democrats want to win in 2020 they should address the issues and not the person.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#24

Post by edwardmurphy » Tue May 07, 2019 5:09 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:47 am
I'm saying that IF the democrats want to win in 2020 they should address the issues and not the person.
Ok, solid point.

The thing is, they can't just disengage. Trump's behavior has been problematic, and the Mueller report flat out says that he obstructed justice. They also can't make it a one issue race. I think their best options are to push for socialized medicine and a massive infrastructure bill, as well as promising to protect our interests from foreign meddling and rebuild the old relationships with our allies abroad. If they can do that without getting sucked into some pissing contest over some fringe social justice issue I think the have a good shot.

We'll see.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#25

Post by Philip » Tue May 07, 2019 7:58 pm

Any spending initiative floated that will massively raise taxes is doomed to failure - and likewise would doom the political career of anyone supporting such.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#26

Post by edwardmurphy » Tue May 07, 2019 10:04 pm

And there's the GOP trap.

They cut taxes, increase spending, and blow up the deficit and the debt. Then they deregulate Wall Street and the banks. Then we have a crazy economic boom, where everybody goes nuts and lives like there's no tomorrow. Then it all collapses, a la 2008 (after a GOP Congressional supermajority overrode Clinton's veto and gutted Glass Steagall and then Bush deregulated everything). When the Dems got the keys back the car was in a ditch, upside down and on fire, so there was no choice but to raise taxes and cut spending (while the GOP sat back and bitched about it). It'll happen again, probably sooner rather than later.

We can't afford not to enact some form of government healthcare and build new infrastructure. We needed it before the Republicans gave a huge, unfunded tax cut to the rich, and we still need it. Somebody is going to have to be the grownup in the room and make it happen, and we all know it won't be the GOP.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#27

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed May 08, 2019 7:04 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:09 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:47 am
I'm saying that IF the democrats want to win in 2020 they should address the issues and not the person.
Ok, solid point.

The thing is, they can't just disengage. Trump's behavior has been problematic, and the Mueller report flat out says that he obstructed justice. They also can't make it a one issue race. I think their best options are to push for socialized medicine and a massive infrastructure bill, as well as promising to protect our interests from foreign meddling and rebuild the old relationships with our allies abroad. If they can do that without getting sucked into some pissing contest over some fringe social justice issue I think the have a good shot.

We'll see.
Sure, no doubt, but since the democrats NEED to win some republican votes or at least some "swing votes" and those votes won't be won with the current tactics, don't you think it is time for a change?

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#28

Post by edwardmurphy » Wed May 08, 2019 5:49 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 7:04 am
Sure, no doubt, but since the democrats NEED to win some republican votes or at least some "swing votes" and those votes won't be won with the current tactics, don't you think it is time for a change?
The Dems aren't likely to get any Republican votes, although some anti-Trump conservatives - guys like DBowling - might decide stay home or vote for a legitimate conservative. That's not up to the Dems, though. If conservatives boycott or protest vote they'll be driven by disgust with Trump's behavior, not by appeals from the Democrats.

I don't know if the current tactics will win the swing voets over, but at the same time, how can the Dems just back down and let Trump bury the Mueller Report? Trump obstructed justice. Repeatedly. Flagrantly. And he did it in an effort to shut down the investigation of a Russian attack on our election. Even if he has no Russian ties to hide and he was only acting to protect his ego that's still some incredibly problematic behavior.

I don't think that they should bother trying to impeach (barring some extraordinary development), and I don't think they should make Trump their primary focus, but they can't just let it go.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#29

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed May 08, 2019 6:27 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:04 pm
And there's the GOP trap.

They cut taxes, increase spending, and blow up the deficit and the debt. Then they deregulate Wall Street and the banks. Then we have a crazy economic boom, where everybody goes nuts and lives like there's no tomorrow. Then it all collapses, a la 2008 (after a GOP Congressional supermajority overrode Clinton's veto and gutted Glass Steagall and then Bush deregulated everything). When the Dems got the keys back the car was in a ditch, upside down and on fire, so there was no choice but to raise taxes and cut spending (while the GOP sat back and bitched about it). It'll happen again, probably sooner rather than later.

We can't afford not to enact some form of government healthcare and build new infrastructure. We needed it before the Republicans gave a huge, unfunded tax cut to the rich, and we still need it. Somebody is going to have to be the grownup in the room and make it happen, and we all know it won't be the GOP.
That is not what President Trump is going to do instead he is going to make the rich who control the Deep State with their money eat all of the debt of America and they will go broke.So it does'nt matter how much money he spends because the globalist rich is going to eat it.Trump is going to move us away from the Fed and the US dollar will be backed by gold.No longer will the Federal Reserve be able to print money to waste and make the rich more rich at the expense of the American people.Trump is good at filing bankruptcy.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#30

Post by edwardmurphy » Wed May 08, 2019 6:38 pm

I'm speechless...
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