An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

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An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#1

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:29 am

Employer fired him because he stopped a ... wsuit.html

Is anyone familiar with this news story?
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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#2

Post by edwardmurphy » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:51 am

Your link is broken. Is it this story?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/30/em ... wsuit.html

If so, I'm not seeing Christian persecution. I wouldn't even call it persecution by Christians. This is just an employer who made a demand that can't possibly be legal and is getting sued. I expect the employer is going to lose. Hopefully he won't take enough of a financial hit to kill his business because, apart from this one highly questionable decision, he seems like he's doing a lot of good.
If you're accustomed to privilege equality may feel like oppression.

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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#3

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:01 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:51 am
Your link is broken. Is it this story?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/30/em ... wsuit.html

If so, I'm not seeing Christian persecution. I wouldn't even call it persecution by Christians. This is just an employer who made a demand that can't possibly be legal and is getting sued. I expect the employer is going to lose. Hopefully he won't take enough of a financial hit to kill his business because, apart from this one highly questionable decision, he seems like he's doing a lot of good.
Yes that's the story.

My point was that it may be a case of a Christian employer, who is persecuting an employee for something he has no business forcing employees to do.

I say that it may be persecution because the employer fired the man for not wanting to attend "mandatory" bible studies. The man didn't want to attend, because it wasn't something he believed in.

I'm not claiming any kind of institutional persecution. Only by the employer.
John 5:24
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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#4

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:31 am

In a country as varied as the US is, I'm sure there's some genuine persecution of Christians, but nothing on a large scale.
However, online there is bound to be all sorts of crap. I saw on Youtube where some radical was talking about how "we should shoot creationists." which the responder started saying no because they are a historical artifact and started mocking creationists.

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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#5

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:24 am

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:31 am
In a country as varied as the US is, I'm sure there's some genuine persecution of Christians, but nothing on a large scale.
However, online there is bound to be all sorts of crap. I saw on Youtube where some radical was talking about how "we should shoot creationists." which the responder started saying no because they are a historical artifact and started mocking creationists.
Did you read the link?

I believe the persecution was done by a Christian, not to a Christian.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#6

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:03 am

I'm wondering, what the real point is Rick?
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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#7

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:03 am

RickD wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:24 am
thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:31 am
In a country as varied as the US is, I'm sure there's some genuine persecution of Christians, but nothing on a large scale.
However, online there is bound to be all sorts of crap. I saw on Youtube where some radical was talking about how "we should shoot creationists." which the responder started saying no because they are a historical artifact and started mocking creationists.
Did you read the link?

I believe the persecution was done by a Christian, not to a Christian.
That has happened to, like with the KKK who weren't acting like Christians, and technically Fred Phelps though he is more of a plain nuisance to other churches and other people.

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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#8

Post by edwardmurphy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:53 pm

RickD wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:01 am
My point was that it may be a case of a Christian employer, who is persecuting an employee for something he has no business forcing employees to do.

I say that it may be persecution because the employer fired the man for not wanting to attend "mandatory" bible studies. The man didn't want to attend, because it wasn't something he believed in.

I'm not claiming any kind of institutional persecution. Only by the employer.
Yeah, I get where you're coming from. I don't like the word persecution in this instance. When I think of persecution I think of something that's systemic, or at least broad based. What homosexuals went through for most of Western history (black listing, harassment, fines, imprisonment, torture, execution, etc.) was persecution. So was the Roman Emperor burning Christians, or the Christians Clergy and Monarchies segregating Jews and barring them from guild membership, or the Chinese government imprisoning, torturing, and murdering Fulan Gong practitioners. It's persecution when the majority lines up against a certain group, like in the South where the state, county, and local governments, the courts, the average Joe, and most of the Church all colluded to make Blacks second-class citizens and ensure they stayed that way.

In this instance an employer made an unreasonable (and most likely illegal) demand, but the offended party will have his day in court and might win some damages from the offender. I don't think that goes far enough to be persecution.
If you're accustomed to privilege equality may feel like oppression.

Before you ask why ask if.

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#9

Post by RickD » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:20 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:53 pm
RickD wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:01 am
My point was that it may be a case of a Christian employer, who is persecuting an employee for something he has no business forcing employees to do.

I say that it may be persecution because the employer fired the man for not wanting to attend "mandatory" bible studies. The man didn't want to attend, because it wasn't something he believed in.

I'm not claiming any kind of institutional persecution. Only by the employer.
Yeah, I get where you're coming from. I don't like the word persecution in this instance. When I think of persecution I think of something that's systemic, or at least broad based. What homosexuals went through for most of Western history (black listing, harassment, fines, imprisonment, torture, execution, etc.) was persecution. So was the Roman Emperor burning Christians, or the Christians Clergy and Monarchies segregating Jews and barring them from guild membership, or the Chinese government imprisoning, torturing, and murdering Fulan Gong practitioners. It's persecution when the majority lines up against a certain group, like in the South where the state, county, and local governments, the courts, the average Joe, and most of the Church all colluded to make Blacks second-class citizens and ensure they stayed that way.

In this instance an employer made an unreasonable (and most likely illegal) demand, but the offended party will have his day in court and might win some damages from the offender. I don't think that goes far enough to be persecution.
By definition, it is persecution. It's small in scale, but still persecution.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#10

Post by RickD » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:21 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:03 am
I'm wondering, what the real point is Rick?
The point of what?

The point of the guy trying to make his employees go to bible study?

The point of my posting a thread about it?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#11

Post by LittleHamster » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:43 pm

I reckon 'persecution' is bit too strong a word here. Would 'Discrimination' be more accurate ?

I thought there are anti-discrimination laws (at least in my country) specifically for the work place to deter that sort of behavior.


BUT

"Discrimination in employment on the basis of religion occurs when someone does not experience equality of opportunity in employment because of their religion. This may include being refused a job, being dismissed from employment, being denied training opportunities or being harassed at work."

"Discrimination on the basis of religion alone is not unlawful under federal anti-discrimination law. However in some cases people have been found to be covered by the term ‘ethnic origin’ in the Racial Discrimination Act, and discrimination on this basis is against the law.......Discrimination related to religion, religious conviction, religious belief or religious activity can be unlawful under the laws of ....most states"

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/quick-guide/12091



It does not mention being made to go and attend a course on religion, refusing to go on a course and then getting the boot.
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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#12

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:08 pm

RickD wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:21 pm
Kurieuo wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:03 am
I'm wondering, what the real point is Rick?
The point of what?

The point of the guy trying to make his employees go to bible study?

The point of my posting a thread about it?
Firstly, this isn't persecution. It's not like the non-Christian is being fed to lions, the Christian is just an ass. At least, so far as the story is concerned -- we've only heard one side, right?

It feels to me more like you're just grinding your axe against Stu/B.W. who are quick to post their own stories. I just don't see how that is productive -- tell me I'm wrong, but it's like you're taking a shot at them i.e., the real point of your post.

Second, if you're legitimately posting as a topic to be discussed in its own right (i.e., no axe-grinding), it's on the same par as a Christian being persecuted because they were denied a job or told to leave a cafe. So what you get annoyed over some Christians doing, you're now doing the exact same thing only in the opposite corner.
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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#13

Post by RickD » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:22 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:08 pm
RickD wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:21 pm
Kurieuo wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:03 am
I'm wondering, what the real point is Rick?
The point of what?

The point of the guy trying to make his employees go to bible study?

The point of my posting a thread about it?
Firstly, this isn't persecution. It's not like the non-Christian is being fed to lions, the Christian is just an ass. At least, so far as the story is concerned -- we've only heard one side, right?

It feels to me more like you're just grinding your axe against Stu/B.W. who are quick to post their own stories. I just don't see how that is productive -- tell me I'm wrong, but it's like you're taking a shot at them i.e., the real point of your post.

Second, if you're legitimately posting as a topic to be discussed in its own right (i.e., no axe-grinding), it's on the same par as a Christian being persecuted because they were denied a job or told to leave a cafe. So what you get annoyed over some Christians doing, you're now doing the exact same thing only in the opposite corner.
No, it's not a shot at B. W. or Stu. The article was on my foxnews app, and I thought it was interesting.

And according to dictionary.com, persecution is:
hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.
So I'll say it again, by definition, this is persecution.

Do I think the issue is a big deal? No. It seems that the boss will get his due.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#14

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:23 am

LittleHamster wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:43 pm
I reckon 'persecution' is bit too strong a word here. Would 'Discrimination' be more accurate ?

I thought there are anti-discrimination laws (at least in my country) specifically for the work place to deter that sort of behavior.


BUT

"Discrimination in employment on the basis of religion occurs when someone does not experience equality of opportunity in employment because of their religion. This may include being refused a job, being dismissed from employment, being denied training opportunities or being harassed at work."

"Discrimination on the basis of religion alone is not unlawful under federal anti-discrimination law. However in some cases people have been found to be covered by the term ‘ethnic origin’ in the Racial Discrimination Act, and discrimination on this basis is against the law.......Discrimination related to religion, religious conviction, religious belief or religious activity can be unlawful under the laws of ....most states"

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/quick-guide/12091



It does not mention being made to go and attend a course on religion, refusing to go on a course and then getting the boot.
I have an aunt who once applied for a job where she actually had credentials for it.
She was turned down but a Hispanic women who couldn't even speak English got it and me aunt got upset.

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Re: An actual case of Christian persecution in America?

#15

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:31 pm

RickD wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:22 am
Kurieuo wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:08 pm
RickD wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:21 pm
Kurieuo wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:03 am
I'm wondering, what the real point is Rick?
The point of what?

The point of the guy trying to make his employees go to bible study?

The point of my posting a thread about it?
Firstly, this isn't persecution. It's not like the non-Christian is being fed to lions, the Christian is just an ass. At least, so far as the story is concerned -- we've only heard one side, right?

It feels to me more like you're just grinding your axe against Stu/B.W. who are quick to post their own stories. I just don't see how that is productive -- tell me I'm wrong, but it's like you're taking a shot at them i.e., the real point of your post.

Second, if you're legitimately posting as a topic to be discussed in its own right (i.e., no axe-grinding), it's on the same par as a Christian being persecuted because they were denied a job or told to leave a cafe. So what you get annoyed over some Christians doing, you're now doing the exact same thing only in the opposite corner.
No, it's not a shot at B. W. or Stu. The article was on my foxnews app, and I thought it was interesting.

And according to dictionary.com, persecution is:
hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.
So I'll say it again, by definition, this is persecution.

Do I think the issue is a big deal? No. It seems that the boss will get his due.
Persecution as I see is being told to convert, stop praying or have physical ramifications such as being tossed in jail, beaten, beheaded, stoned, tossed from a building, etc. Gay people are persecuted for example in Saudi Arabia, as well as Christians and Atheists.

The Christian guy in your story owns his business. It is his full right to run his business as he sees fit and hire who he desires to hire. That is the libertarian in me speaking. If he fired someone merely because he thought they gave him an odd look, then that's his right. He may have no reason, that too is his free right. It is not persecution as I see to fire someone for any reason, however stupid that reason is. The owner has every right to run his business as he sees fit. The worker has every right to agree to those terms, however ridiculous they might seem, or disagree and find work elsewhere.

The worker likely knew what he was getting into from the get go when he signed up to the job. Perhaps he didn't believe it was a serious requirement, but it is likely he agreed to it as a condition of employment. To then reneg on his agreement and cry foul shows his word and honour are fickle. Neither do I don't think it's right for Christians to discriminate like the employer did -- we're to treat both non-Christian and Christian equally, and even focus more on having the non-Christian (prodigal son) return rather than the Christian who has already returned.

BUT, persecution? We don't really know what that is in Western society, which is why everyone hums and hars over egg shells being cracked. Pick up a copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs or read about what people in Iraq and Syria went through as ISIS took hold. Sorry, but you need better perspective with what "hostility and ill-treatment" is imo, just as much as B.W. and Stu (sorry too guys!).
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