Making political statements in sports

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Re: Making political statements in sports

#16

Post by Hortator » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:46 pm

If it was systematic, systemic, or based on a system of oppression, we'd have evidence of such a monolithic claim.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

#17

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:50 pm

Hortator wrote:If it was systematic, systemic, or based on a system of oppression, we'd have evidence of such a monolithic claim.
That would seem reasonable.
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Re: RRe: Making political statements in sports

#18

Post by JediMasterAaron » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:25 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
JediMasterAaron wrote:Both of you miss the point by a country mile. The only thing I agree with is that we need to talk, so lets talk. Friends, the protest has never been about the flag, anthem, military or whatever Fox news has been spewing out. It's about the unfair treatment of African-Americans by racist police officers, standing up to police brutality, and unjust killings of unarmed black men. Systemic racism, not blatant racism. Well, both really. No one should have a problem with that, so please stop with this whole "they're disrespecting the anthem, etc" when that's not even the problem. If you don't care enough to learn about the real issue then that's your choice, but it comes across as real ignorant and insensitive, which is the last thing I would expect from my fellow Christians. Being African American myself, this is important to me. I'll link a video that basically sums up my point. It will have some language. From there we can hopefully come to some understanding.
You don't see how rich, privileged BLACK athletes protesting SYSTEMATIC racism is self-defeating?
More blacks are killed by blacks than any other race.
More whites are killed by whites than any other race.
More whites are killed by cops than blacks.
And protesting the anthem of a PEOPLE, the people that have given you the ability to make millions playing a game, is just plain stupid.
You're right, I did use the wrong word. I meant institutional, my fault :mrgreen: . Now, I figured it was only a matter of time before you brought up the same responses I've seen a million times. I fail to see why how much money they make somehow makes them less qualified to speak on an issue or that they should be apathetic to certain issues. Or the typical response that they should shut up and do their job. I don't think you watched the video, or read my response, so I'll repeat it. The protest has nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with the actual anthem, it's meaning, the lyrics, the flag, or however you want to spin it. I'll also reiterate I admit, I used the wrong word, I meant institutional racism. As for the crime, that's a product of what happens when the government cuts funding for after school programs. Idle time right? No one is ignoring the problem of black on black crime. We've been working on it, those rich, privileged, black athletes do a lot for their communities. Unfortunately, change doesn't happen overnight. The cop killings? We aren't advocating for criminals, it's the unarmed killings, where cops get off free and the police department doesn't even admit if they messed up or issue an apology.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

#19

Post by JediMasterAaron » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:30 pm

RickD wrote:
Ed wrote:
In your opinion. Others would argue that kneeling during the anthem is a good way to bring attention to systemic issue that is national in scope. They might even argue that those wealthy, privileged athletes have a moral responsibility to use the visibility afforded by their celebrity to bring attention to the plight of people who lack the means to do so themselves.
My argument is that that's just not the best way to bring issues to light. Not too many things turn people off more than unpatriotic acts.

Why can't athletes ask CNN or MSNBC or foxnews for an interview?

They are doing harm to whatever cause they are tying to bring to light. They claim they want people to understand their issues, and then be able to discuss them. But, by doing this during the national anthem, they aren't getting people to discuss their issues, because people can't get past their disrespect(intentional or not) of what the flag and national anthem represent.
Beyond that, if disrespect for the flag is such a big deal then why is Sideshow Don not bothering to also call out the hundreds of people who use that time to get a hot dog , send a text, or take a leak? Is that not also disrespectful? What about American flag clothing? Is it disrespectful to cover one's *** with American flag hot pants? How about the self styled right wing patriots who hung the flag upside-down during the Obama years? Was that not disrespectful?

Seriously, Rick, why is the definition of disrespect so narrow? Why is the outrage so selective?

Seems to me that Trump's comments have all the hallmarks of manufactured outrage designed to distract his base from the latest failure to repeal Obamacare, or maybe the guy he backed losing in the Alabama primary. Or perhaps his son-in-law's use of a private email account for government business. Or maybe Mueller and that whole Russia thing. Or maybe he was just playing to the crowd, like the vain, petty, irresponsible clown that he is. Who knows. But whatever it was, it wasn't sincere, unifying, or presidential.
I'm not sure why you addressed this to me. Did I give you the impression that I speak for president Trump?

Edit: I just noticed what you said here:
...systemic issue that is national in scope.
Systemic issue?
Rick, I think you should watch the video if you haven't. It asks a question that I haven't got a solid answer to yet. What's the proper way for black people to protest? Protests aren't supposed to make everyone feel comfortable. Don't forget, Kaepernick sat down with a veteran last year, and was advised by him to kneel because sitting was what he found to be disrespectful, but kneeling was not.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

#20

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:57 pm

JediMasterAaron wrote:
RickD wrote:
Ed wrote:
In your opinion. Others would argue that kneeling during the anthem is a good way to bring attention to systemic issue that is national in scope. They might even argue that those wealthy, privileged athletes have a moral responsibility to use the visibility afforded by their celebrity to bring attention to the plight of people who lack the means to do so themselves.
My argument is that that's just not the best way to bring issues to light. Not too many things turn people off more than unpatriotic acts.

Why can't athletes ask CNN or MSNBC or foxnews for an interview?

They are doing harm to whatever cause they are tying to bring to light. They claim they want people to understand their issues, and then be able to discuss them. But, by doing this during the national anthem, they aren't getting people to discuss their issues, because people can't get past their disrespect(intentional or not) of what the flag and national anthem represent.
Beyond that, if disrespect for the flag is such a big deal then why is Sideshow Don not bothering to also call out the hundreds of people who use that time to get a hot dog , send a text, or take a leak? Is that not also disrespectful? What about American flag clothing? Is it disrespectful to cover one's *** with American flag hot pants? How about the self styled right wing patriots who hung the flag upside-down during the Obama years? Was that not disrespectful?

Seriously, Rick, why is the definition of disrespect so narrow? Why is the outrage so selective?

Seems to me that Trump's comments have all the hallmarks of manufactured outrage designed to distract his base from the latest failure to repeal Obamacare, or maybe the guy he backed losing in the Alabama primary. Or perhaps his son-in-law's use of a private email account for government business. Or maybe Mueller and that whole Russia thing. Or maybe he was just playing to the crowd, like the vain, petty, irresponsible clown that he is. Who knows. But whatever it was, it wasn't sincere, unifying, or presidential.
I'm not sure why you addressed this to me. Did I give you the impression that I speak for president Trump?

Edit: I just noticed what you said here:
...systemic issue that is national in scope.
Systemic issue?
Rick, I think you should watch the video if you haven't. It asks a question that I haven't got a solid answer to yet. What's the proper way for black people to protest? Protests aren't supposed to make everyone feel comfortable. Don't forget, Kaepernick sat down with a veteran last year, and was advised by him to kneel because sitting was what he found to be disrespectful, but kneeling was not.
The comedy of the video aside, I'm a huge fan of sarcasm, I think the question is flawed. The point I'm trying to make, and people seem to be missing, is that kneeling for the national anthem is an improper way for anyone to protest. It doesn't matter what color skin the person has who's protesting.

I already made a suggestion in one of my posts here, regarding a way someone could protest. And again, I don't give a rats @ss what the color of the person who is disrespecting the flag, the national anthem, and what they represent. If you want to protest to make whatever point you want to make, don't disrespect the flag and the anthem, and then claim that's not what the protest is about.

I don't now how to say this any clearer, so I'll type in big letters:

No matter how noble your cause may be, you can't even get to the point of the cause when you disrespect the national anthem. You can't claim that it's not about disrespecting the anthem, when you disrespect the anthem.
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Re: Making political statements in sports

#21

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:05 pm

jedimasteraaron wrote:
...that I haven't got a solid answer to yet. What's the proper way for black people to protest?

Since you missed it the first time, in my post here, this is my suggestion, as an answer to your question. Athletes are public figures. News stations want people to watch. Sounds like a win-win:
RickD wrote:
Why can't athletes ask CNN or MSNBC or foxnews for an interview?
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Re: Making political statements in sports

#22

Post by JediMasterAaron » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:08 pm

RickD wrote:
JediMasterAaron wrote:
RickD wrote:
Ed wrote:
In your opinion. Others would argue that kneeling during the anthem is a good way to bring attention to systemic issue that is national in scope. They might even argue that those wealthy, privileged athletes have a moral responsibility to use the visibility afforded by their celebrity to bring attention to the plight of people who lack the means to do so themselves.
My argument is that that's just not the best way to bring issues to light. Not too many things turn people off more than unpatriotic acts.

Why can't athletes ask CNN or MSNBC or foxnews for an interview?

They are doing harm to whatever cause they are tying to bring to light. They claim they want people to understand their issues, and then be able to discuss them. But, by doing this during the national anthem, they aren't getting people to discuss their issues, because people can't get past their disrespect(intentional or not) of what the flag and national anthem represent.
Beyond that, if disrespect for the flag is such a big deal then why is Sideshow Don not bothering to also call out the hundreds of people who use that time to get a hot dog , send a text, or take a leak? Is that not also disrespectful? What about American flag clothing? Is it disrespectful to cover one's *** with American flag hot pants? How about the self styled right wing patriots who hung the flag upside-down during the Obama years? Was that not disrespectful?

Seriously, Rick, why is the definition of disrespect so narrow? Why is the outrage so selective?

Seems to me that Trump's comments have all the hallmarks of manufactured outrage designed to distract his base from the latest failure to repeal Obamacare, or maybe the guy he backed losing in the Alabama primary. Or perhaps his son-in-law's use of a private email account for government business. Or maybe Mueller and that whole Russia thing. Or maybe he was just playing to the crowd, like the vain, petty, irresponsible clown that he is. Who knows. But whatever it was, it wasn't sincere, unifying, or presidential.
I'm not sure why you addressed this to me. Did I give you the impression that I speak for president Trump?

Edit: I just noticed what you said here:
...systemic issue that is national in scope.
Systemic issue?
Rick, I think you should watch the video if you haven't. It asks a question that I haven't got a solid answer to yet. What's the proper way for black people to protest? Protests aren't supposed to make everyone feel comfortable. Don't forget, Kaepernick sat down with a veteran last year, and was advised by him to kneel because sitting was what he found to be disrespectful, but kneeling was not.
The comedy of the video aside, I'm a huge fan of sarcasm, I think the question is flawed. The point I'm trying to make, and people seem to be missing, is that kneeling for the national anthem is an improper way for anyone to protest. It doesn't matter what color skin the person has who's protesting.

I already made a suggestion in one of my posts here, regarding a way someone could protest. And again, I don't give a rats @ss what the color of the person who is disrespecting the flag, the national anthem, and what they represent. If you want to protest to make whatever point you want to make, don't disrespect the flag and the anthem, and then claim that's not what the protest is about.

I don't now how to say this any clearer, so I'll type in big letters:

No matter how noble your cause may be, you can't even get to the point of the cause when you disrespect the national anthem. You can't claim that it's not about disrespecting the anthem, when you disrespect the anthem.
Well, I tried...and I failed, don't get me wrong I'm understanding your point Rick, we're just diverting at two different parts of the road :D .

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Re: Making political statements in sports

#23

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:33 pm

jedimasteraaron wrote:
Well, I tried...and I failed, don't get me wrong I'm understanding your point Rick, we're just diverting at two different parts of the road :D
You tried what?

Here are the points that I see you are trying to make. Feel free to correct me where I'm not accurate, or if I'm missing something.

1) Blacks have no place to protest without getting criticized for where they are protesting

2) There is institutional racism that needs to be addressed

3) The NFL protests are not about disrespecting the flag nor the anthem

The only one of the three I haven't addressed is #2. I'd need to see actual proof of institutional racism, before I could address it.
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Re: Making political statements in sports

#24

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:16 pm

Jedimasteraaron,

Thought you might like to see a differing pov

http://youtu.be/lwfvRbAK2IM
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Re: Making political statements in sports

#25

Post by JediMasterAaron » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:27 pm

RickD wrote:
jedimasteraaron wrote:
Well, I tried...and I failed, don't get me wrong I'm understanding your point Rick, we're just diverting at two different parts of the road :D
You tried what?

Here are the points that I see you are trying to make. Feel free to correct me where I'm not accurate, or if I'm missing something.

1) Blacks have no place to protest without getting criticized for where they are protesting

No, we can protest we just have to make sure everyone is ok with how and where.

2) There is institutional racism that needs to be addressed

Correct.

3) The NFL protests are not about disrespecting the flag nor the anthem

Also correct, but we aren't agreeing on this point.

The only one of the three I haven't addressed is #2. I'd need to see actual proof of institutional racism, before I could address it.
That's the thing about institutional racism, it isn't supposed to be seen. However, let me provide you with an example. My name is Aaron, lets say I was applying for a job at a fortune 500 company. Because my name is "Aaron" I'm more likely to get an interview because my name sounds more "white", now lets say my name was "Quadarius", that's clearly a "black" sounding name. I'm less likely to get that interview simply based off my name, regardless of my qualifications. Another example, Brock Turner getting out of jail early because it may "ruin his reputation", when African-Americans get an automatic 25 to life. They both deserve the 25 to life, but Turner's reputation may be ruined. Does that help?

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Re: Making political statements in sports

#26

Post by JediMasterAaron » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:28 pm

I'll watch it after I leave church.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

#27

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:51 pm

That's the thing about institutional racism, it isn't supposed to be seen. However, let me provide you with an example. My name is Aaron, lets say I was applying for a job at a fortune 500 company. Because my name is "Aaron" I'm more likely to get an interview because my name sounds more "white", now lets say my name was "Quadarius", that's clearly a "black" sounding name. I'm less likely to get that interview simply based off my name, regardless of my qualifications.
I asked for proof of institutional racism, and you provide a hypothetical? If you want me to take you seriously, you need to provide actual proof of institutional racism.

And regarding your other example, Brock Turner, I'm not familiar with the case. But let's assume for the sake of the argument, that he was given less jail time because he's white. How would one judge's bad decision lead you to believe that's an example the the court system as an institution, is perpetrating racism?

Was the court perpetrating racism against Scott Peterson, because OJ Simpson got off, and Peterson was convicted?

You need to understand the difference between acts of racism by individuals, and institutional racism.

I'm sure we both could find acts of racism by police, and others. But you need proof that it's more than individuals being racist, before you cry institutional racism.
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Re: Making political statements in sports

#28

Post by Philip » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:31 pm

OK, YES there is racism all over, within all races, about exactly the same percentages of race - that's been my observation over my lifetime. Will there be more racism incidents caused by the majority - absolutely, as the majority has far more numbers. As for racism, I've experienced it, seen it dished out - across all races! But I have a real problem with people who only or mostly focus on racism against THEIR own race, or who act as if their race is significantly less guilty of it - AS A RACE, PERCENTAGE-WISE - as opposed to other races. People who are obsessed ONLY with racism against their own race are fooling themselves - it's a dishonest way of looking at the world. People of their own race are hurt, killed, robbed, discriminated against, and they are tremendously upset. But they see the same thing perpetrated by their race on another race - their concerns are often far less. That's just wrong! And let me be clear, people who have a problem with the race of others, people who try to apply and stereotype the negativity by the few of any race, to it's entirety - they are being disingenuous, not to mention hypocrites and sinful! Period! People who have a problem with RACE (and race alone) - what they really have is a problem with GOD, WHO created the genetics and distributions that resulted in racial features and identities. But many cannot seem to distinguish between the negative or hurtful actions and words of various INDIVIDUALS from those same persons' entire race. Idiots! They use race selectively and conveniently. OK, that's one thing.

Many of these people raging in the streets or taking a knee are viewing things through a very selective lens - again, cherrypicking which people and actions they despise, and applying to a whole group, race, or political bent - and now, even an entire country (the U.S.). HOWEVER, I DO see and understand some of the things they are upset about - as I don't like them either. I don't like the actions of SOME cops, some white people, some black people, some institutions, some of whatever political bent, some blue and green people, some (even many) people in history and leaders who have done despicable things. Yes, I get it! But what I don't dig is that people are weaving their own HIGHLY selective narratives in identifying who we should be pissed off at. And people see that hypocrisy. And a lot of this hypocrisy is due to naivete that they are being so highly selective, or ignorant of history - especially in very selectively applying a narrative concerning the distant past of our entire country, to their grievances today. They see media incident of racist cops - suddenly, they adopt the view that all cops are evil racists. But isn't that also what racists do: They see actions they despise by various black people, and then adopt the view that all black people are to be despised, are untrustworthy, or all are criminals, etc. And so those with ANY selectively applied views to whole groups of people or entire organizations - really, aren't they basically doing the same thing?

People who are truly upset over things, actions and people that upset them, must ask themselves whether or not, in how they are expressing their anger, ARE THEY HELPING HEAL AND CHANGE THINGS FOR THE BETTER, OR ONLY MAKING THEM WORSE???!!! People must realize that HOW and WHERE they protest can be greatly misunderstood and tremendously divisive. And many such people don't realize they are being used by groups with an agenda to stir things and hatreds up.

The flag issue at games: That flag is a powerful symbol of a country with a highly imperfect past, of vast millions of people who have done much good, yet also much bad. But as we are all Americans, those who properly respect the ideas and constitution of the United States, respect that symbol as one of UNITY, for ALL. It's the one banner we can ALL unite under as we work on our society's issues. But if we focus on things that divide us, if our actions are easily misunderstood and potentially divisive - how is that helping? How is that not making things worse? Because to millions of people - MILLIONS of them black and minority, whose parents and grandparents suffered and died in wars, etc., for the higher ideals America is built upon - those millions died and their children often can see that our country is no less perfect than any other - if they are students of history - they realize that their own loved ones died fighting under that flag! So not respecting that symbol of our freedom and grand idea of unity, to millions, is a great offense, and it sends the message (rightly or wrongly), that those kneeling want to be separate, that they don't want to unite under the powerful symbol of what America should be, and thus they are becoming a huge part of the problem, kneeling with scowls on their faces and anger in their eyes shows me that rather than wanting to build unity and supporting the idea of it, they'd rather piss on it. And so their actions are viewed as hateful and rebellious - is that what they want? Is that a way to positively change things??? They are being divisive at the wrong time, under the wrong symbol, and what they are feeding is extremely dangerous divisiveness. There's a place of expression for things we're upset over, and there are other places where we should reach together in unity and show our appreciation of it. Just venting to vent, to show how radical and edgy you are - by doing it under a mutual symbol of freedom and unity - so publicly, the message it's sending is simply horrible! Such people are making things FAR worse! Do they care about that???!!!

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Re: Making political statements in sports

#29

Post by Philip » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:42 pm

As for institutional racism - SURE it exists! No question! And every society's minorities will experience it. Why - because our sinful human nature favors our own children, ken, race - people that are more like us than different from us. Yep, terribly sinful, but that is how much of the world works. Go to Europe, it's not necessarily race, but nationality or religion. Go to Africa - you'll see minority tribes treated with disdain by those in the majority ones. I used to work in a company that had NO black employees - purposely! Why? Because the owners didn't feel comfortable with people they didn't culturally identify with. Some went further, thinking minorities were inferior. There are many institutional biases designed to favor whatever leadership's sensibilities - and race may or may not be one of them.

But Rick is correct, in that, many who their first impulse is of some institutional bias - even racism - they may be totally wrong. And you can bet that those who constantly think of or expect themselves to be a victim of such bias, will much quicker expect or suspect it. It's very personally harmful to view thing incorrectly through the lens of race. Also, as Christians, we need to lovingly convince others that they are wrong, show some grace - attempt to influence them to change their hearts and minds to see things as God wants us to. Just showing contempt, anger and hatred, demonizing people you disagree with - that's not changing anyone, and it's certainly only going to make things worse. As Christians, we should be seeking to see how God might use us to be part of the solution - as opposed the more gas on the fire!

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Re: Making political statements in sports

#30

Post by JediMasterAaron » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:53 pm

RickD wrote:Jedimasteraaron,

Thought you might like to see a differing pov

http://youtu.be/lwfvRbAK2IM
I'll try and address his main points, with the salary thing, not all of them were born into their money, so it's not fair to judge based off of their current financial incomes. I guess celebrities should quit being activists, since they don't understand the average American. Everyone knows that if you comply with the police, then everything will be fine. I pray for the President everyday, that he moves America forward, doesn't mean I should want to meet him just because I'm a Christian. Plenty of Christians were critical of Obama and other presidents, so that point is moot. As I've said before, I understand where you're coming from, where we keep butting heads is over the issue of the military, flag, anthem, and whether or not it's offensive. You are firmly grounded that it is, while I am not, and it doesn't look like that's going to change. Not that I was trying to change your opinion, just wanted to see if I could clear up some misconceptions, which is why I said earlier that I had failed.

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