Evidence for God from Science

So, it is ok to protest the government and what you view as wrong by making a statement at a sporting event, even if you are an athlete that is paid to play, not make statements.
The owners support their athletes rights to freedom of expression.
Which I agree with.
Freedom of expression and speech and all that of course.

So, what is going to happen when an athlete makes a statement against homosexuality or gay marriage or illegal immigration?

The first amendment applies to the government, not private business.

There's no God given, 1st amendment right to free speech when working for a private company.

The NFL will allow players to disrespect the national anthem as long as it isn't affecting the NFL's pocketbook. If enough fans get pissed off enough to stop going to games, and the NFL isn't making the money that they should be, then "free speech" will be banned.

There's a place and time to protest whatever it is they're protesting. But disrespecting the country by kneeling during the national anthem, isn't the time nor place.

Isn't it ironic that Jaguars and Ravens players, while playing in London, knelt for our national anthem, but stood for "God Save the Queen"?

What company allows its personnel to constantly talk about controversial politics while at work? It's disruptive and hurts the corporate unity, right? Schools don't even allow highly controversial subjects on t-shirts, etc. Why? Same deal - disruptive and creates anger, sometimes violence.

Stereotyping countries and races, etc: What I don't get is, with such expressions like taking the knee during the national anthem - people act as if they are reacting against a particular person or singular group with a bad history of offensive actions - as if one PERSON or persons did this or that under our flag, so they are using it as a symbol to equate the actions of a few or some people, with the symbol of an entire nation who self-identify as a national unity under that very same flag. Yep, bad actions have long been committed by decisions by individual politicians under that flag - but many good and very positive ones as well. Yep, some cops have done bad things - does that make applying their actions to ALL cops???!!! But a whole lot of incredible, outstanding people of all races and political views have also suffered, died, bled while representing our country and while under that same flag. So, while they may be protesting against the obvious baddies and bad decisions under that flag, they are simultaneously disrespecting all of the sacrifice and great things that have occurred because of the often heroic actions of those under that flag. Not only that, but they are creating anger and disunity by their actions. It's a mentality much like racism: People see various people and groups of a certain race doing atrocious and evil things, and so they begin to mentally apply their intense dislike or even hatred to a whole race, as if the bad people within that race are representative of the entire race. It's a selective and convenient stereotyping - very disingenuously and highly selectively applied. The result: Disunity as others begin to buy into their defective, hurtful, immensely divisive thinking. And there's often no end to it, once people go down that road! People are individuals responsible for their own words and actions - how stupid to morph those things to make a statement about an entire race or group of people. People do this in all manner of things. The media helps to feed it.

The NFL: It's ratings and stadium attendance is WAY down! And people are fed up at seeing the disgusting display of disrespect for the symbol of vast millions of people self-identifying as Americans. It's a huge middle finger to unity and so much good our country has been part of, things that the rest of the world desires so badly that they are trying to come here in huge numbers. What? - do they think there is some perfect country out there without some negative baggage in their history? Doesn't exist! But here's the thing, attendance and viewership is down because people are sick of this stuff - sick of seeing pampered athletes making millions showing such great disrespect. So they are slitting their own throats, financially, as the trend of millions these actions are seen as so disgusting, means that the teams will be losing vast sum of revenue - meaning, they'll have to, at some point, begin cutting rosters and salaries. You just don't keep royally pissing off millions of people who are making your awesome salary possible. It's probably going to get very ugly.

Trump: Should stick to running the country and not comment upon all of the trivial stuff in the media - because he's only ramping up the choosing of sides in these emotional matters. For every good instinct or observation Trump has, he torpedoes them with a constant barrage of unhelpful comments inarticulately made - ramping of division and hatred. These are totally unnecessary and just give his critics more ammo they can twist per their own narratives. Course, NOTHING good he'll ever do won't be criticized by the far left and those who hate him.

What this country really needs, on all sides of the political spectrum, are people who talk reasonably and make the case for their views with reason and facts, who show a concern for ALL, and a willingness to listen, that encourage civil dialogue.

Both of you miss the point by a country mile. The only thing I agree with is that we need to talk, so lets talk. Friends, the protest has never been about the flag, anthem, military or whatever Fox news has been spewing out. It's about the unfair treatment of African-Americans by racist police officers, standing up to police brutality, and unjust killings of unarmed black men. Systemic racism, not blatant racism. Well, both really. No one should have a problem with that, so please stop with this whole "they're disrespecting the anthem, etc" when that's not even the problem. If you don't care enough to learn about the real issue then that's your choice, but it comes across as real ignorant and insensitive, which is the last thing I would expect from my fellow Christians. Being African American myself, this is important to me. I'll link a video that basically sums up my point. It will have some language. From there we can hopefully come to some understanding.

I completely agree. The same can be said of BLM, and the myopia of the conservative responses - Blue Lives Matter, All Lives Matter, and the like. There's no need for ALM, because nobody is claiming that they don't. The point of BLM is that there's strong evidence that not everybody agrees with that assertion. Whether or not White lives matter in the United States has never been up for debate - they obviously do and there's no honest way to argue otherwise. Its a fact, just as plain and clear as the sky is blue or water is wet. The same can be said of Blue lives. The police in this country are held in high regard by virtually all of our society. When a police officer is killed in the line of duty entire communities mourn. Flags fly at half mast statewide. Roads, bridges, and parks are renamed in honor of the fallen.

I've always found it maddening how otherwise decent people just shut down when confronted with the existence of systemic racism. Rather than taking even a second to consider the argument or look at the evidence, they rush to come up with an alternative explanation. If you're concerned about race relations in this country you're instantly derided as being divisive, self-pitying, or unpatriotic.

To my mind, exposing the things that we, as a nation, are doing poorly and need to improve is the essence of patriotism. I love my country, and I want it to grow. I want it to be a place that lives up to the values of our Constitution and the image of the shining city on the hill. We're great in part because of our willingness to be reflective and self-critical. Without those characteristics our schools would still be segregated, our female citizens would still lack the vote, and our homosexual citizens would still live in fear of persecution. We're not Saudi Arabia. We're better than that.

JediMasterAaron wrote:Both of you miss the point by a country mile. The only thing I agree with is that we need to talk, so lets talk. Friends, the protest has never been about the flag, anthem, military or whatever Fox news has been spewing out. It's about the unfair treatment of African-Americans by racist police officers, standing up to police brutality, and unjust killings of unarmed black men. Systemic racism, not blatant racism. Well, both really. No one should have a problem with that, so please stop with this whole "they're disrespecting the anthem, etc" when that's not even the problem. If you don't care enough to learn about the real issue then that's your choice, but it comes across as real ignorant and insensitive, which is the last thing I would expect from my fellow Christians. Being African American myself, this is important to me. I'll link a video that basically sums up my point. It will have some language. From there we can hopefully come to some understanding.

You don't see how rich, privileged BLACK athletes protesting SYSTEMATIC racism is self-defeating?
More blacks are killed by blacks than any other race.
More whites are killed by whites than any other race.
More whites are killed by cops than blacks.
And protesting the anthem of a PEOPLE, the people that have given you the ability to make millions playing a game, is just plain stupid.

You keep saying systematic, I don't think this word means what you think it does:
done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical

Understand what it means and realize how silly you sound.

We both said "systemic." You're the one saying "systematic."

Also, thanks for the perfect example of the conservative myopia I was talking about.

JediMasterAaron wrote:Both of you miss the point by a country mile. The only thing I agree with is that we need to talk, so lets talk. Friends, the protest has never been about the flag, anthem, military or whatever Fox news has been spewing out. It's about the unfair treatment of African-Americans by racist police officers, standing up to police brutality, and unjust killings of unarmed black men. Systemic racism, not blatant racism. Well, both really. No one should have a problem with that, so please stop with this whole "they're disrespecting the anthem, etc" when that's not even the problem. If you don't care enough to learn about the real issue then that's your choice, but it comes across as real ignorant and insensitive, which is the last thing I would expect from my fellow Christians. Being African American myself, this is important to me. I'll link a video that basically sums up my point. It will have some language. From there we can hopefully come to some understanding.

You are completely missing the issue here. If there is something someone wants to protest against, they need to find a proper way to do it. Even if the point that someone wants to protest is a valid point, doing it during the national anthem, shows disrespect to the anthem and the flag.

It's respectful to stand during the national anthem. Anything else is disrespecting the anthem, whether or not disrespect is meant.

In your opinion. Others would argue that kneeling during the anthem is a good way to bring attention to systemic issue that is national in scope. They might even argue that those wealthy, privileged athletes have a moral responsibility to use the visibility afforded by their celebrity to bring attention to the plight of people who lack the means to do so themselves.

Beyond that, if disrespect for the flag is such a big deal then why is Sideshow Don not bothering to also call out the hundreds of people who use that time to get a hot dog , send a text, or take a leak? Is that not also disrespectful? What about American flag clothing? Is it disrespectful to cover one's ass with American flag hot pants? How about the self styled right wing patriots who hung the flag upside-down during the Obama years? Was that not disrespectful?

Seriously, Rick, why is the definition of disrespect so narrow? Why is the outrage so selective?

Seems to me that Trump's comments have all the hallmarks of manufactured outrage designed to distract his base from the latest failure to repeal Obamacare, or maybe the guy he backed losing in the Alabama primary. Or perhaps his son-in-law's use of a private email account for government business. Or maybe Mueller and that whole Russia thing. Or maybe he was just playing to the crowd, like the vain, petty, irresponsible clown that he is. Who knows. But whatever it was, it wasn't sincere, unifying, or presidential.

edwardmurphy wrote:We both said "systemic." You're the one saying "systematic."

Also, thanks for the perfect example of the conservative myopia I was talking about.

Meh...
sys·tem·ic
səˈstemik/Submit
adjective
1.
relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.
"the disease is localized rather than systemic"

I find it incredible that, a country in which racism is part of the system ( systemic), can elect a black president TWICE and its people pay minorities millions and even buy the clothes they wear or make or design or simply because they have their names on it.
Special privileges are awarded to them simply because they are a minority and they are allowed to say and act in ways that any non-minority would be penalized for.

I agree that there is still a problem of racism ( its actually culturalism not racism but that is another thread) BUT on a indivual basis and not a system that is designed to keep minorities down and impoverished.

Ed wrote:
In your opinion. Others would argue that kneeling during the anthem is a good way to bring attention to systemic issue that is national in scope. They might even argue that those wealthy, privileged athletes have a moral responsibility to use the visibility afforded by their celebrity to bring attention to the plight of people who lack the means to do so themselves.

My argument is that that's just not the best way to bring issues to light. Not too many things turn people off more than unpatriotic acts.

Why can't athletes ask CNN or MSNBC or foxnews for an interview?

They are doing harm to whatever cause they are tying to bring to light. They claim they want people to understand their issues, and then be able to discuss them. But, by doing this during the national anthem, they aren't getting people to discuss their issues, because people can't get past their disrespect(intentional or not) of what the flag and national anthem represent.

Beyond that, if disrespect for the flag is such a big deal then why is Sideshow Don not bothering to also call out the hundreds of people who use that time to get a hot dog , send a text, or take a leak? Is that not also disrespectful? What about American flag clothing? Is it disrespectful to cover one's *** with American flag hot pants? How about the self styled right wing patriots who hung the flag upside-down during the Obama years? Was that not disrespectful?

Seriously, Rick, why is the definition of disrespect so narrow? Why is the outrage so selective?

Seems to me that Trump's comments have all the hallmarks of manufactured outrage designed to distract his base from the latest failure to repeal Obamacare, or maybe the guy he backed losing in the Alabama primary. Or perhaps his son-in-law's use of a private email account for government business. Or maybe Mueller and that whole Russia thing. Or maybe he was just playing to the crowd, like the vain, petty, irresponsible clown that he is. Who knows. But whatever it was, it wasn't sincere, unifying, or presidential.

I'm not sure why you addressed this to me. Did I give you the impression that I speak for president Trump?

Edit: I just noticed what you said here:

...systemic issue that is national in scope.

Systemic issue?

I blame the asian people !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... old_income

Indian American : $121,390[2]
Jewish American : $97,500[3]
Taiwanese American : $85,566[4]
Filipino American : $82,389[4]
Australian American : $81,452[2]

//www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/0 ... -progress/