Manchester terrorist attack...

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#31

Post by edwardmurphy » Thu May 25, 2017 1:56 pm

Philip wrote:What you are saying is that the terrorists aren't logical. They can't say, "I'm murdering these people at a concert because of A and B. People willing to kill innocent civilians in a theatre are mad men!


That's not true, Phil. Evil can be cold, calculating, and completely rational. Look at the Holocaust. Madmen couldn't have handled the logistics of finding and collecting millions of people, transporting them across Europe to concentration camps, executing them, and then sending their possessions back to be recycled for the war effort. Their goal was evil and insane, but they went at it as rationally as accountants calculating quarterly profits.

Terrorism is logical, rational, goal-oriented behavior. It's violence against civilians in pursuit of political goals. If it's not rational it's literally not terrorism. They want to destabilize the western democracies and turn their narrow conflict between ISIS and the West into a much broader conflict between Islam and the West. Blowing up concerts, stabbing commuters, and shooting up clubs are all logical ways to spread fear, distrust, and chaos.
Philip wrote:Those who imply that if the west would only stop this or that, we wouldn't have these people doing such things. And THAT is a steaming load of crap! These people have bought into the politics of hate. Period! There is NO rational or moral justifications for such peoples' terrorist actions.
This could be the disconnect. It seems like there's a knee-jerk tendency to view any attempt to understand or explain terrorists' actions or motives as making excuses for them. Attempts at putting the war on terror into the broader historical context are likewise condemned as blaming the victims or hating America. I don't think those assessments are correct.

For example, I've never once heard anyone make the claim that terrorism would end if the West just started being nicer or whatever, but I've often heard conservatives rage against that idea. What moderates are actually saying is that if we don't make some changes to our foreign policy and we just keep on doing what we're doing the War on Terror will never end. If we defeat ISIS but keep on doing the things that spawned them in 20 years we'll be fighting ISIS 2.0, and so on and so forth, forever.

So yes, we need to defeat ISIS. We need to wipe them out of existence, because they're evil and they're not going to change. But we also need to take steps to deprive ISIS 2.0 of the next generation of angry young men. That means supporting democratic efforts in the Middle East, and pressuring dictators to give their people a voice, and treating the Israelis and the Palestinians equally, and it means toning down the rhetoric and shutting up about how Islam is evil.
Philip wrote:And on this same page, I see accusations that the west has collaborated with dictators, and yet we're blamed with removing them. WHICH is it???!!! Yep, we've done both. But what choice do we have when there are NO certain good guys to deal with?


Well, with regard to dealing with dictators, we can use our economic and moral (if we ever regain it) standing to pressure them into becoming more democratic and less brutal. Of course that would sometimes mean putting the needs of their people ahead of the desires of our oil execs, so it would take some backbone.

Regarding removing a dictator, it seems like a generally bad idea, but if we had to do it I guess we'd want to apply the old adage that if it's worth doing it's worth doing well. So you know, have a plan in place before the shelling starts.

And Phil, I'm not sitting here saying that any of this is simple or easy.

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#32

Post by edwardmurphy » Thu May 25, 2017 1:58 pm

Hortator wrote:I present to you all, Occam's Razor.
What...?

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#33

Post by Storyteller » Thu May 25, 2017 3:23 pm

There have been many reports of Muslims condeming the attack and ISIS. Many Muslims have gathered together to help and support the community, from offering shelter to the victims to raising money.
I don't think Islam is the way to God but nor do I think that everyone who is a Muslim is evil.
Isis is an extremist group that uses terror and hatred, most Muslims don't think that way.

Any religion can be warped, twisted, misunderstood and to be fair there has been a lot of evil commited in the name of Christianity too. I remember reading a while back about how Christians invaded a town, massacred the people in it, women and children, in the belief that if they had faith then they would be saved. I will have to google for details.

Not all Muslims are terrorists. As Christians we talk about love, tolerance and forgiveness yet we condemn all Muslims? No such thing as a moderate Muslim? Some of the first to help were Muslims. By claiming there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim we are playing straight into the terrorists hands.
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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#34

Post by Philip » Thu May 25, 2017 5:57 pm

Ah, where to start the response? Of COURSE all Muslims are not evil - I'm not even close to asserting such.
Ed: Evil can be cold, calculating, and completely rational. Look at the Holocaust. Madmen couldn't have handled the logistics of finding and collecting millions of people, transporting them across Europe to concentration camps, executing them, and then sending their possessions back to be recycled for the war effort. Their goal was evil and insane, but they went at it as rationally as accountants calculating quarterly profits.

Terrorism is logical, rational, goal-oriented behavior. It's violence against civilians in pursuit of political goals. If it's not rational it's literally not terrorism. They want to destabilize the western democracies and turn their narrow conflict between ISIS and the West into a much broader conflict between Islam and the West. Blowing up concerts, stabbing commuters, and shooting up clubs are all logical ways to spread fear, distrust, and chaos.
Ed, of course evil people have a logic - but it's a perverse, hateful logic, and people who reason that it's a great idea to bring down passenger jets, kill 8 year old girls at concerts - not only is their logic twisted (by Western and Christian standards - and by most of the free world), but their logic is aimed at achieving their sick, desired results. These types of people, those who are the leaders and plotters, they don't respect or respond to moral reasoning that if we treated this or that country better, adopted or abandoned whatever policy, that they'd respond accordingly. And that is bunk! What they care about is not OUR initiatives, but THEIR sick objectives. These sicko Islamist leaders love their respect and power over their followers, must continually point to some evil boogeymen they are fighting, and they'll do whatever to remain in power, to gain more of it, and to achieve additional sick objectives that they can point to as them being successful. THOSE are the things they care about. Policy changes, etc., yes, they can help making the conditions somewhat less fertile for recruitment. But face it, most of the misery in the world of the Islamists is self-inflicted: They don't build, change, produce, encourage good things from their society. From the Taliban to Hamas to ISIS, the PLO - all of these are evil and corrupt and have brought their people continued misery - thus their collective need to have favorite "boogeymen" - the West/Christians/Crusaders, the Jews, the U.S. - as it keeps the focus off their own corruption and failures to make their citizens have a better world.
Ed: It seems like there's a knee-jerk tendency to view any attempt to understand or explain terrorists' actions or motives as making excuses for them. Attempts at putting the war on terror into the broader historical context are likewise condemned as blaming the victims or hating America. I don't think those assessments are correct.
Again, the problem is the kind of people you are dealing with don't care what we do - we will not change them by changing our response. I don't give a damn about history - you know why? Because we can't change it! It's one of their pathetic ongoing excuses for justifying ongoing barbarism and butchery. It changes nothing, and solves nothing. Adjustments in our behavior would have very little impact upon those with such an evil mindset. It does no good to try to rationally dissect how to deal with such evil men. Now, we can do some things to encourage those not yet infected from becoming so - but it won't change the hard core evil ones at the top, or how we must deal with them. You cannot point to any successes by such tactics, with such evil entities.
Ed: What moderates are actually saying is that if we don't make some changes to our foreign policy and we just keep on doing what we're doing the War on Terror will never end. If we defeat ISIS but keep on doing the things that spawned them in 20 years we'll be fighting ISIS 2.0, and so on and so forth, forever.
And THAT is as if what these butchers are doing has some moral basis in justifying what they are doing - again, far more frequently to other Muslims, due to their proximity. For people like ISIS, any Muslim not with them - that's an enemy. Again, we're to believe a rational adjustment in policies is going to change sick and morally bankrupt monsters. The Nazi's are a great example, btw, every peaceful initiative was just viewed as weakness. The only way to have stopped them was to defeat them. Of course, that was a different kind of enemy - but the principle is the same. Their focus was the per the evil objectives of their leadership. And, of course, similar to the Nazis, every Islamist group has politicized religious views wrapped up in Islamic teachings - of domination. I'd suggest you study a bit of the Quran and how extremist tend to interpret it - btw, which doesn't take much twisting to develop horrific objectives. And Mohammad's history and teachings perfectly mesh with the hate they are teaching.
Ed: So yes, we need to defeat ISIS. We need to wipe them out of existence, because they're evil and they're not going to change. But we also need to take steps to deprive ISIS 2.0 of the next generation of angry young men.
Ed, with you so far - no problem with good policies. But I'm drawing a line between those whom we can have an impact upon, and who we cannot - groups like ISIS, that approach produces zilch!
Ed: That means supporting democratic efforts in the Middle East, and pressuring dictators to give their people a voice, and treating the Israelis and the Palestinians equally, and it means toning down the rhetoric and shutting up about how Islam is evil.
In my opinion, you will never make a Western-style democracy out of Islamic nations - because they are based upon whatever interpretations and justifications per the Quran - they are political theocracies based upon following the Quran. Name just one? And please don't say "Turkey." Islam-based countries do not have the cultural beliefs or foundations to build a democracy.
Ed: Well, with regard to dealing with dictators, we can use our economic and moral (if we ever regain it) standing to pressure them into becoming more democratic and less brutal.


Yes, we can see how that has worked so well - again, how is that gonna work. The foundation has to be in place, the strongmen and dictators would have to relinquish control, and who are we to tell other nations what kind of political system they should adopt? How is this supposed to happen?
Ed: Of course that would sometimes mean putting the needs of their people ahead of the desires of our oil execs, so it would take some backbone.
How so? OPEC almost wrecked the world's economies, choked off the oil flow, and the petrol dollars in the oil states made their per capita incomes soar beyond the wildest imaginations. It IS our business to make sure the oil keeps flowing, per the devastating world-wide effects if it were to be seriously disrupted. If the wrong hands try to gain oil lands via force - again - that's our business because you don't want petrol dollars feeding mayhem. Sorry, but that's just common sense. Ah, but are we to deal with dictators, or not? Are we supposed to be in the nation-building biz - per George W? Unthinkably dumb. Again, we can deal with those unsavory ones who keep a peace, try to encourage good changes in them, but encourage them to be toppled? Really???!!!
Ed: Regarding removing a dictator, it seems like a generally bad idea, but if we had to do it I guess we'd want to apply the old adage that if it's worth doing it's worth doing well. So you know, have a plan in place before the shelling starts.
It's not doable. Period! The impulse for countries to change must come from within - and those at the top need to be in agreement and cooperation. There is no power today who can cause such a change and enforce the peace - not in the tough neighborhoods of the Islamic republics.
Ed: And Phil, I'm not sitting here saying that any of this is simple or easy.
LOL - the understatement of the year - but I agree.

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#35

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri May 26, 2017 8:10 am

Can someone please show me these protests and marches of Moderate Muslims against radical Islam?
Not being sarcastic, I am genuinely asking since I have not seen any over here.

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#36

Post by B. W. » Fri May 26, 2017 8:55 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Can someone please show me these protests and marches of Moderate Muslims against radical Islam?
Not being sarcastic, I am genuinely asking since I have not seen any over here.
I doubt we will see any...Polling data amonst Muslims show a hefty percent support extremist...

Peace in Islam does not mean Peace as Peace means in the west. In Islam peace means 'submission' to Islam - sharia law...

Islam is the religion of 'submission' to Islam - sharia law worldwide, ie take over the world and govern all under sharia law...

Till people wake us to this and confront it, expect more to come and worse... till Peace - submission' to Islam - comes...
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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#37

Post by edwardmurphy » Fri May 26, 2017 9:45 am

Anybody with access to Google will have no trouble at all finding examples.

It's also worth pointing out that simply being Muslim doesn't make a person responsible for acts of terror committed by people who are also Muslim any more than being Jewish makes a person complicit in Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme or being Christian comes with the responsibility of explaining the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church.
Last edited by edwardmurphy on Fri May 26, 2017 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#38

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri May 26, 2017 9:49 am

edwardmurphy wrote:Anybody with access to Google will have no trouble at all finding examples.
You mean like this?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 91306.html

or:
https://www.indy100.com/article/to-anyo ... yluTo126Hb

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#39

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri May 26, 2017 9:50 am


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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#40

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri May 26, 2017 9:55 am

So Ed's pint is valid, Muslims DO protest against terrorist acts.
So, I guess that leads to the question: And? what has come out of it?

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#41

Post by Kurieuo » Fri May 26, 2017 10:01 am

According to Channel 4 poll on Brittish Muslims:
  • 52% believe homosexuality should be illegal
  • 23% would like to see Sharia law in England
  • 39% believe a woman should always obey her husband, as opposed to 5% of English overall
  • 31% consider it acceptable for a man to have multiple wives
  • 34% would inform the police if they thought somebody they knew was getting involved with people who support terrorism in Syria
  • 4% sympathise with people who take part in suicide bombings (only about 112k or so Muslims, nothing to worry about)
  • 4% sympathise with people who commit terrorist actions as a form of political protest.
  • 32% refuse to condemn those who take part in violence against those who mock the Prophet
  • and various other things...
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#42

Post by edwardmurphy » Fri May 26, 2017 10:03 am

It's been about as useful as gun owners condemning mass shootings - not very. But the talking point is that Muslim condemnation of terrorism never happens so they must all be in favor of it. That's demonstrably false. The efficacy of their condemnation is a different issue.

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#43

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri May 26, 2017 10:33 am

edwardmurphy wrote:It's been about as useful as gun owners condemning mass shootings - not very. But the talking point is that Muslim condemnation of terrorism never happens so they must all be in favor of it. That's demonstrably false. The efficacy of their condemnation is a different issue.
Yes, I agree.
I was aware of some minor protests but it seems that I was wrong and yes, I do agree that moderate muslims have suffered as much, if not more, than non-muslims at the hands of terrorists.
That said, I think we need to address that moderate muslims are NOT a factor in this.

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#44

Post by Philip » Fri May 26, 2017 11:01 am

34% would inform the police if they thought somebody they knew was getting involved with people who support terrorism in Syria
So, here we are with Muslims already living in a democratic country, enjoying its freedoms and opportunities, and yet a THIRD of them wouldn't tip the police concerning people they know are involved in dangerous activities with the potential to produce terror-related crimes. Wow! There are nearly 3 million Muslims living in the U.K. - and so a million of them would turn a blind eye to those engaged with dangerous activities and people. And that's just the tip of the iceberg - run that poll amongst new refugees from areas of known, active radical Islamists - I'd bet that percentage, already shockingly high, would be much higher. Who, knowing the stakes of what such people might do, seeing the bodies strewn across news photos, yet wouldn't pass the info along to authorities? On some level, such people think they are going against Allah and their Muslim brothers. So, that would lead me to believe that such people think their god justifies much of the terrorism - after all, it's mostly the "infidels" being slaughtered in the West. Note also, from amongst Muslims enjoying freedoms and benefits in the West - the polar opposite of conditions typical desperate conditions from where they originated - yet among such Muslims is a fertile recruiting ground for the extremists.

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Re: Manchester terrorist attack...

#45

Post by Kurieuo » Fri May 26, 2017 11:14 am

The thing about Islam is such isn't just a "religion", but much, much more.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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