Ten Commandment Monument removed

Discussions about politics and goings on around the world. (Please keep discussions civil!)
User avatar
supersonicthehedgehog
Acquainted Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:25 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 0

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#1

Post by supersonicthehedgehog » Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:13 pm


User avatar
edwardmurphy
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1971
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 144 times
Been liked: 115 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#2

Post by edwardmurphy » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:17 pm

Why is that sad?
If you're accustomed to privilege equality may feel like oppression.

User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 9895
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia
Has liked: 627 times
Been liked: 643 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#3

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:55 pm

Well, it was already there so why go after its removal?

The fact you feel a sense of satisfaction over its removal Ed (right?), shows that it means something.
Personally, I'm not tied to any particular statue and I didn't even know this one existed.

However, its proactive removal serves as a symbol that Oklahoma won't tolerate religion.
That there are those who won't be happy until any semblance of Christianity is eradicated.
And those who support such ideals will obviously be happy with its removal.

BUT, ultimately, such displays a lack of tolerance and lack of sensitivity.
That, is sad don't you think? Sends a message that being American and Christian simply do not mix.
I didn't know America was a Seculocracy and as such intolerant towards anything other.
Must one be secular to be truly American?

It's just lucky Oklahoma is dealing with Christians, right?
If that was a monument of the Koran, then I'm sure blood would be shed over its removal.
Definitely death threats to the judge and those involved.
These users liked this post by Kurieuo:
B. W. (Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:15 am)
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

User avatar
edwardmurphy
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1971
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 144 times
Been liked: 115 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#4

Post by edwardmurphy » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:41 am

Kurieuo wrote:Well, it was already there so why go after its removal?


They went for its removal, and won, because its placement violates the Constitution of Oklahoma.
Kurieuo wrote:The fact you feel a sense of satisfaction over its removal Ed (right?), shows that it means something.
Personally, I'm not tied to any particular statue and I didn't even know this one existed.
I agree with the decision, but it would be a stretch to say I'm basking in a sense of satisfaction. I don't care all that much about any statue either, but I strongly support the Constitutional separation between Church and State.
Kurieuo wrote:However, its proactive removal serves as a symbol that Oklahoma won't tolerate religion.
That there are those who won't be happy until any semblance of Christianity is eradicated.
And those who support such ideals will obviously be happy with its removal.
That's an absurd overreaction. Nobody is trying to eradicate Christianity. What's happening is that a few activists are pushing the courts to follow Constitutional law and stop allowing Christian symbols to be displayed in government buildings as if Christianity were recognized as the official state religion. The government of the United States is secular. The people are free to worship however they choose, and that very much includes Christians. Churches are still everywhere and still tax-exempt. Individuals can still put all of the Christian imagery they want on their private property. Politicians still relentlessly pander to Christian leaders and voters. And most importantly, nobody that I've ever heard of is attempting to change any of that.
Kurieuo wrote:BUT, ultimately, such displays a lack of tolerance and lack of sensitivity.
That, is sad don't you think? Sends a message that being American and Christian simply do not mix.
I didn't know America was a Seculocracy and as such intolerant towards anything other.
Must one be secular to be truly American?
Being American and being Christian don't mix because a statue was moved? Really? Last I looked 70% of the population of the United States Christian, as was the vast majority of our elected officials. The point here is that that fact doesn't change the fact that there is a Constitutional separation of Church and State. That's not just the law, it's a founding principle of our democracy. I understand how some Christians would resent losing special privileges, but trying to spin that as persecution is factually incorrect.
Kurieuo wrote:It's just lucky Oklahoma is dealing with Christians, right?
If that was a monument of the Koran, then I'm sure blood would be shed over its removal.
Definitely death threats to the judge and those involved.
When Oklahoma passed a Constitutional amendment banning Sharia law the Muslim response was to take them to court. Why would it be any different with a Muslim statue?

It's also ridiculous to argue that Islam has cornered the market on intolerance, violence, or extremism. Christianity provides plenty of all those things. Sure, Christian terrorism is much less common than Muslim terrorism, but that's less about religious differences and more about the fact that the conflict between Islam and the West is extremely asymmetric. I imagine that the terrorists would much rather drive us out of the Middle East with tank battalions and air strikes, but they can't so they use what they have. If the roles were reversed I expect we'd do the same.
If you're accustomed to privilege equality may feel like oppression.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21025
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 191 times
Been liked: 1043 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#5

Post by RickD » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:04 pm

The 10 commandments were given to Israel. Although part of the bible, the 10 commandments are not Christian, any more than the Levitical laws are Christian. As such, the monument wasn't mixing Christianity with government.

It was simply a historical display. Not a means to mix Judaism and the govt.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3345
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 552 times
Been liked: 300 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#6

Post by Nessa » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:15 pm

RickD wrote:The 10 commandments were given to Israel. Although part of the bible, the 10 commandments are not Christian, any more than the Levitical laws are Christian. As such, the monument wasn't mixing Christianity with government.

It was simply a historical display. Not a means to mix Judaism and the govt.
Are you saying the 10.commandmands dont apply to us christians?

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5922
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 91 times
Been liked: 137 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#7

Post by Byblos » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:25 pm

I'm in agreement with Ed on this one. We are at a cross-roads as American Christians where we must recognize certain rights that are in conflict with our beliefs such as gay marriage. It won't be long until polygamy is also made legal and why not, if 2 men or 2 women can form a union, why not 3 or 5? The political tide has shifted and if we do not intend to shift our most fundamental beliefs with the tide then we'd better advocate, no insist on total and radical separation of church and state. I mean from every facet, marriage becomes a religious institution only; the government will only recognize civil unions. Change the tax code (heck all government code) to eliminate any reference to gender, marriage, spousal relations, etc. Abolish any and all tax benefits for 'unionized' persons, change inheritance laws, guardianship, property ownership and transfer, proxies, etc. etc. As Christians we ought to be pushing for this change because that's where the trend is going anyway, if not this year then the next, if not this decade then certainly the next. At least if we champion this cause we can be certain to also advocate to preserve certain rights or risk getting swept with the tide.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21025
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 191 times
Been liked: 1043 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#8

Post by RickD » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:31 pm

Nessa wrote:
RickD wrote:The 10 commandments were given to Israel. Although part of the bible, the 10 commandments are not Christian, any more than the Levitical laws are Christian. As such, the monument wasn't mixing Christianity with government.

It was simply a historical display. Not a means to mix Judaism and the govt.
Are you saying the 10.commandmands dont apply to us christians?
Aren't you precious! :pound:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3345
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 552 times
Been liked: 300 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#9

Post by Nessa » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:39 pm

RickD wrote:
Nessa wrote:
RickD wrote:The 10 commandments were given to Israel. Although part of the bible, the 10 commandments are not Christian, any more than the Levitical laws are Christian. As such, the monument wasn't mixing Christianity with government.

It was simply a historical display. Not a means to mix Judaism and the govt.
Are you saying the 10.commandmands dont apply to us christians?
Aren't you precious! :pound:
Will wait til you have finished laughing before I reply...





omg, you are still going? :shock: :P


ok, so I do see them as applying to us and for us too....If the bible is living then why not? Sure you have to read the bible in context but how can you compare lev law to 10 commandments?

User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3345
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 552 times
Been liked: 300 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#10

Post by Nessa » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:44 pm

Yes we are not under the law but does not God still expect us to keep it..the principles?

Jesus said hey dont get me wrong...I have not come to do away with the law...
Last edited by Nessa on Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21025
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 191 times
Been liked: 1043 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#11

Post by RickD » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:49 pm

Nessa wrote:
RickD wrote:
Nessa wrote:
RickD wrote:The 10 commandments were given to Israel. Although part of the bible, the 10 commandments are not Christian, any more than the Levitical laws are Christian. As such, the monument wasn't mixing Christianity with government.

It was simply a historical display. Not a means to mix Judaism and the govt.
Are you saying the 10.commandmands dont apply to us christians?
Aren't you precious! :pound:
Will wait til you have finished laughing before I reply...





omg, you are still going? :shock: :P


ok, so I do see them as applying to us and for us too....If the bible is living then why not? Sure you have to read the bible in context but how can you compare lev law to 10 commandments?
I compare the Levitical law with the 10 commandments, because they were both given specifically to Israel.

Just look at Exodus 20, where the 10 commandments were given. It shows the context:
20 Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]slavery.


And then the text goes on to list the commandments. They weren't given to gentile believers. They were given to the nation of Israel.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3345
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 552 times
Been liked: 300 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#12

Post by Nessa » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:54 pm

I believe the 10 commandments have a primary meaning and context but that it doesnt stop there. It has applicable meaning for us as christians too.
These users liked this post by Nessa:
Kurieuo (Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:42 pm)

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21025
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 191 times
Been liked: 1043 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#13

Post by RickD » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:58 pm

Nessa,

Read this.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3345
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 552 times
Been liked: 300 times

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#14

Post by Nessa » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:11 pm

RickD wrote:Nessa,

Read this.
I dunno, I guess I have always seen it differently..
I dont look to the 10 commandments to 'save me' as if I am judged by them cos then surely Id deserve hell.

But as I said, I don't dismiss them either. Jesus came to shed light on them...to expand on them...to fufil them. I think he was saying in Matt 5 that dont think you can dismiss the law...tell you what..im going to make it even harder...you hate your brother and you have already killed him in your heart...

User avatar
tunde1992
Recognized Member
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:15 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Ten Commandment Monument removed

#15

Post by tunde1992 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:56 pm

i always thought this verse Matthew 22:37-40 was the reason we didn't follow the ten commandments anymore. that along with it being part of the old covenant.
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
-matthew 6:33

Post Reply