U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#46

Post by melanie » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:02 pm

I guess your referring to the last part of my post.
I was being satirical Rick

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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#47

Post by melanie » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:04 pm

EssentialSacrifice wrote:The exemption mel is the complicit link of the Sisters to their employees, knowingly sending them to another "exchange" is of no avail as they are still aware of the practice. What i don't get yet is why the gov't won't allow for their exchanges to supply the meds. It seems to me it would solve the problem of the Sister's knowing (and there by complicit) and the gov't gets it's sought after coverage for all these type employed people.
It would be a better system ES.
The thing is those employees have the right to obtain this medication.

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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#48

Post by RickD » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:06 pm

Boy, am I glad I started this thread! It was starting to get a little stale around here lately!
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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#49

Post by Jac3510 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:06 pm

Let's just suppose that no one here could put forward an argument as to why filing the exemption was a violation of their faith. Suppose we were all ignorant of the ideas of material cooperation with evil and with scandal. Suppose we didn't know anything about canon law or the ERDs.

Now, suppose the Little Sisters say, "This violates my faith." I assume that the Little Sisters understand their faith better than I do. So what right does anyone (mel) have to say, "Sorry, I don't see how this violates your faith, therefore, I'm going to tell you that you have to do it anyway."

The burden of proof is not on the Little Sisters or me or ES or anyone else to show that this violates their faith. The burden is on others (mel) to show how the Little Sisters are WRONG in their claim that this violates their faith. And, with that, I ask yet again, what kind of hubris do you have to assume to take such a position?

Anyway, if the government wants to give people the right to this medication, they can do that. What the government can't do--what they don't have the right to do--is tell the Little Sisters that they don't have the right to practice their faith as they see it, that they have to violate their faith and either provide directly or even cooperate in the provision of contraceptives. The government can give it directly if it so chooses. Leave the Little Sisters out of it.
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FlawedIntellect (Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:12 pm)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#50

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:10 pm

I probably should avoid the fire, but...

It sucks that I pay for Medicare in my taxes.
We have no individual choice. Already there our freedom is being squashed.
And I disagree that Australia is really that great, especially via way of political parties. It's really do we want this dictatorship or that.
However, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. It's not my money is what I tell myself, even if my work effort is the reason why I pay taxes.

In the US on the other hand, employer's are being forcibly made complicit to act as the middle man.
Mel is kind of right here, the government shouldn't use businesses, but do their dirty work (or good work, however you look at it) by dealing with each person directly. Take control from businesses. Then the government's own hands are fully responsible.

But, even abortion aside, it is a strongly held Catholic position that contraceptives are wrong.
So even being forced to fund such, especially considering this isn't just a positions Catholics have suddenly held to, is a slap in the face to their beliefs and freedom of religious expression.
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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#51

Post by Jac3510 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:26 pm

The history is actually interesting in how we got this way, K. Health insurance used to be a totally private thing, but the taxes were really, really high on income and businesses start having trouble promoting and keeping employees due to that. It just didn't pay to pay people more. What they figured out was that they could offer to pay people's health insurance premiums as a benefit of working for them. That amounted to a pay hike without the associated taxes. Of course, over time, especially with unions and bargaining, employer based health insurance became the norm. That has created all kinds of market distortions, but that's the way it is.

It seems to me a better system than either ours or yours is to stop taxing income at all. Then businesses could pay whatever they wanted and not worry about benefits. Allow insurance companies to sell across state lines and let people buy their own insurance policies. Then they could take them between jobs. Yay for portability!

Actually, let me just give a link. Long one, but this is the system I support. (Full disclosure: I'm not a capitalist; I am, by and large, a distributist).

http://distributistreview.com/mag/2011/ ... re-system/

edit:

I really want to highlight the above article. It is REALLY worth the read. It was written in 2011, long before the ACA was taken to the Supreme Court in NIFB v Sebelius to decide if the mandate was constitutional. I want to post an excerpt from that article:
Some have suggested that these problems will go away if we make insurance mandatory and universal, as in the Massachusetts Plan. However, a mandatory purchase is just another name for a tax; since everybody is required to purchase the product, it cannot really be a free market.
Medaille is nearly prophetic here, for it is exactly this point that Justice Roberts used (against the public arguments made by Democrats at the time) that the mandate was constitutional! My point in raising this has less to do with the ACA than it does to demonstrate that Medaille is very nuanced in his thinking and understands this stuff on a very deep level. So I strongly encourage anyone interested in what a good, reasonable, Christian (not theocratic!) healthcare system would like like.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#52

Post by B. W. » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:07 pm

melanie wrote:
B. W. wrote:Why would Nuns need the pill?
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Hehe that made me laugh. :pound:
Me too after seeing the news break on this story a few days ago...

The irony of it shines through :lol:
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FlawedIntellect (Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:34 pm)
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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#53

Post by B. W. » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:15 pm

There are two meanings for the word persecution and they follow along this framework:

1-extreme hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.

2-or persistent annoyance or harassment because of race or political or religious beliefs.

The problem here, Mel, is that many folks only think persecution only involves extreme overt ill-treatment, abuse, torture, and hostility. What is failed to note is how that ill treatment slowly begins with the 2 part of the definition as persistent annoyance or harassment to force some sort of compliance.

Here is an example: Bullies persecute others in order to get their way. They use threats of force or coercion to get compliance from a targeted victim or group. This is what is beginning to happen here in the USA and the Little Sisters group is but one.

This sets a precedent, a legal one, to go after others. It is a stepping stone used to go after others one does not like. This is why it needs to stop now, before the overt begins.

Now read the 45 Communist Goals for America Link here These goals are on other websites too.

From that link read goals 25-32...

25) Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography,
and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio and TV.


26) Present homosexuality, degeneracy, and promiscuity as "normal,
natural, and healthy."


27) Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social"
religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual
maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."


28) Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools
on the grounds that it violates the principle of "separation of church and
state."


29) Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old
fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation
between nations on a worldwide basis.

30) Discredit the American founding fathers. Present them as selfish
aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man".

31) Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of
American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of "the big
picture"

32) Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any
part of the culture - - education, social agencies, welfare programs,
mental health clinics, etc.


Amazing isn't it? Written in 1963. These goals have been modified over time to modernize. The progressive left's goal is all about central planning / socialism, neo-Marxism / etc and etc and all all well documented.Look at goal 11:

11) Promote the UN as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is
rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one world government with its own
independent armed forces.

This is all done in slow stages read this article written 2008 to get an idea. The last part is in error, ministers have been handcuffed and now the fed is going after the religious liberty of a group of Nun's - the Little Sisters who provide Hospice care.

Now on to another bit of irony - why would anyone in Hospice care need the pill?

In the USA, you can get the pill in its many forms easy enough and it used to be cheap. It wasn't an issue. Now it is. Not so much for to providing health care as it is to control churches and soon what they can an cannot teach. It comes in slow stages by persistent annoyance or harassment to force some sort of compliance upon a targeted group - is persecution plain and simple.

While we still have a chance, this needs to stop before it gets out of hand. If not, then we have truly entered the last days and the beginnings that may lead to some form of the one world government with parts of Revelation 12 a reality...
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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#54

Post by abelcainsbrother » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:09 am

Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#55

Post by abelcainsbrother » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:26 am

America is sliding to communism and it makes no difference who the President is,whether Republican or Democrat but I do not care what the world says I am going to stand on the word of God and I am going to rebel against political correctness.I am not going to be a wimp in Jesus's name,no matter what the world throws my way.We have Christians in the middle east right now getting their heads chopped off and so these wimpy Christians in America,the tares can be how they choose but I refuse to be another product of the state here in America.I bind political correctness in Jesus name!
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#56

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:57 am

he thing is those employees have the right to obtain this medication.
They absolutely do, but there-in lies the problem. The gov't has the exchanges to provide the med but will not allow a person from this size, type institution to go to the exchanges, (because of the forced coverage upon the employers), in stead forcing The Little Sister's (and hundreds of other so defined businesses) to provide, even though gov't knows this is a take it or leave it option that is religiously abhorrent to their beliefs and practices. It seems a quite unnecessary debate if the forceful party, the gov't, would ease the tension voluntarily, if so far, seemingly, capable of doing so. It's the unnecessary forcefulness here that seems a persecution style approach.

"You'll do it our way because we know better about your faith / business than you," "because we said so..."

That's reason to worry.
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#57

Post by B. W. » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:14 pm

Here is a bit more on the slow steps of persecution as it pertains to persistent harassment because of race or political or religious beliefs.

http://www.persecution.org/category/cou ... ed-states/
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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#58

Post by neo-x » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:03 am

WOW!

This is persecution,Image in screams and blood.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#59

Post by B. W. » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:35 am

Yes that is...

and in he USA we would like to keep beginning stages of it from metastasizing into your photo.

In the USA. we still have a chance but where you are it, Neo, it is full blown. Try to understand we are trying to keep this from becoming the norm in the USA. It begins slow, codified into law, then slides into greater degrees as seen in your country and in the Middle East... That is in accordance to te full definition of persecution... begins slow then the extreme comes...

You need our prayers...

neo-x wrote:WOW!

This is persecution,Image in screams and blood.
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: U.S. govt religious persecution alive and well!

#60

Post by Jac3510 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:38 am

Yes it is, neo. And we want to keep it from getting anywhere near that level here. That's why the First Amendment is so important to us.

Recognizing what this administration is doing to the Little Sisters as the persecution it is, is not saying that they are persecuting them in the same way Christians are being persecuted by Islamists or other religious extremists. But just because it has not gotten anywhere near that point, it does not follow that it is not persecution and not evil in its own right.
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FlawedIntellect (Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:47 am)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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