Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusades

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B. W.
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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#61

Post by B. W. » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:13 am

Rob wrote:By and large, the Muslim people are peaceful and moral. It is true that you can use the Qur'an and Hadith to back this up. However, you can also use them to justify all kinds of terrible things and many do. It's a different situation entirely than things from the Old Testament where we can look into the context and historical background for insight. We can at least know what was written. What Dan said about the majority of early Qur'an texts being burned was true. This happened under the Caliph Uthman in 650 AD. In order to prevent pesky footnotes and different readings, he ordered all versions and writings to be gathered. From these he selected an official version and had the rest burned.
That being said, we can safely take the text at face value simply for the fact that other texts no longer exist. Until we can find many alternate manuscripts that describe how Aisha was actually 18 when they consummated their marriage, we can safely assume that the text as it is now is correct. If you try and say that we don't really know what the text says, then you may as well just throw the whole thing out.
If the Qur'an is truly the word of Allah, you'd think Allah would have guarded his word more carefully. (And understood Christian theology)
The Qur'an is not the word of Allah that existed forever in time (in Arabic). It is a view of the world from a 7th century man's understanding.

There are plenty of peaceful passages in the Qur'an. Muhammed was all about peace when Islam was the minority in Pagan polytheistic Mecca, but Islam is a political religion and cannot be rightly separated from government. The pattern with Islam is that once it becomes majority and in power, those violent passages take over.

I have a great deal of respect for the Muslim people. At least they understand their unworthiness before a Holy God. I pray that they come to a knowledge of Christ and cling to the cross. Islam is darkness.
I disagree that Islam teaches a peaceful moralism - what fellowship does light have with darkness?

Islam kills - Christianity loves... big difference.

Again the article quoted below sums it up very well.
Six eye-opening things you might not have known about Islam from a top Shariah lawyer
Feb. 27, 2015 9:15am
Benjamin Weingarten

6 things not known about Islam

Recently we conducted an extensive interview with a former top Iranian Shariah lawyer and author of “Honor Killing: A Professional’s Guide to Sexual Relations and Ghayra Violence from the Islamic Sources,” Daniel Akbari, on the nature of Islam and Shariah law generally, and in particular its dictates regarding violence against women.

While reading Akbari’s book, we came across a passage describing six principles in Islam that we thought might be particularly eye-opening for readers. These include:

1-Koffar (unbelievers) do not have a right to know what Islam teaches.

2-It is sinful for Muslims to take non-Muslims as friends or protectors unless it is for the purpose of using the non-Muslims to accomplish the goals of Islam. It is not a sin if Muslims “make taqiyya” – use deception – to protect themselves or Islam.

3-Muslims must lie if it is the only way to achieve an obligatory goal of Islam, especially the maqasid al-sharia, the ultimate goal.

4-The most important goal Muslims must achieve is to spread deen, the worship of Allah through Islam.

5-It is sinful for Muslims to allow non-Muslims to look down on Muslims or Islam in any way.

6-Finally, the purpose of ghayra violence [up to and including honor killing] is to al-amr bi al-ma’ruf wa al-nahy ‘an al-munkar – to enjoin good and forbid evil as defined by the moral rules of sharia.

Muslims know that non-Muslims do not follow the moral rules of sharia, they follow the moral provisions of their religion or their law. Muslims also know non-Muslims do not understand the moral provisions of sharia, because understanding sharia moral provisions requires understanding the maqasid al-sharia, the goals of Islam.

It does not benefit Muslims to inform non-Muslims of the maqasid so they could understand sharia because the ultimate goal of Islam is to contain, subjugate and eliminate all other religions so that all people everywhere follow Islam. Revealing this goal would only increase opposition among the most wicked of all creatures, those who resist Islam.

It follows it is not in the interest of Muslims to reveal Islam’s connection to ghayra violence. To reveal this connection would alert non-Muslims to disparage Islam or Muslims and, at worst, might stimulate non-Muslims to resist Islam. The Muslims’ best course of action – the way that minimizes opposition to the spread of deen – is to deceive non-Muslims into believing Muslims follow the same moral ideas they follow. Only in that way will Islam not appear to threaten the moral and political order of koffar society.

Our conclusion is that deceiving non-Muslims about Islam’s connection to ghayra violence is obligatory, so non-Muslims will not perceive the difference between their morality and sharia and threaten the spread of deen. Good news again for our Muslim spokespeople! But of course, they knew this all the time. Now you do, too.
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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#62

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:23 am

B. W. wrote: I disagree that Islam teaches a peaceful moralism - what fellowship does light have with darkness?

Islam kills - Christianity loves... big difference.

Again the article quoted below sums it up very well.
I don't think Islam teaches peaceful moralism and I didn't mean to imply that it did. I'm just saying that most Muslims are peaceful people despite their texts. Most of the world's Muslims can't even speak Arabic or can even read the Qur'an. Some use passages of the Qur'an to show that Islam teaches peace, but since it can be shown as the opposite as well and we don't have much source material to choose from, which do we choose? I think Islam clearly shows the latter based on the life of Muhammad. He started out peaceful and wound up violent.

I love Muslims, but hate Islam.

I just wonder how the peaceful moderates could possibly stick to their interpretation if they became the majority power in world government. That would be scary.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#63

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:43 am

Even Muslims have the image of God and moral standard that bears witness with them wrong and right.

So, because their religion in many of our eyes is really ultimately Satanic, many Muslims will definitely not see it.
If they're a person who responds more to the human intuition God imparted into us, then they will be peaceful, loving, etc. They will equally see Islam as a religion of peace. I really do not want to generalise these people in with the more radicals who I believe are more faithful to true Islam.
In Islam, you still have honest people, mothers, fathers, sons, grandmothers and grandfathers wanting a cup of tea or whatever they do.
They're not going to blow anyone up, or lie about their beliefs, or necessarily hate democracy or the like.

These are the kind of people I believe D220 in his own way was trying to stand up for.
Just, I think, the way it came out and the topics dwelt on, it just all came out wrong and went to pieces.

In any case, as a Christian, I think it important to reach out to all Muslims.
They're not the enemy, but rather the spiritual and unseen forces are. These forces have people on a lot of strings.
I often wonder what I'd be like in front of an ISIS person going to behead or kill me.
I'd hope I'd be given an opportunity to say I forgive him, do what he feels needs to be done but I'm praying he finds Christ.
For in that I know love wins over the hate. And Christ died for me, do it'd be a privilege dying for Christ in return.

As horrible as all the stuff that goes on is in the name of "Islam", ultimately such just shows to me the truer invisible evils working in the world.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#64

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:59 am

Imagine what it would be like to witness to a Muslim, then be beheaded by that Muslim. Later on Christ uses your words to draw the man to Himself and he comes to a saving faith in Christ. Imagine meeting the guy who beheaded you in heaven.

The tears of joy and laughter!

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#65

Post by Philip » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:28 am

What a hooeyfest of duck and dodge this thread has been! It matters not one whit whether or not Mohammad's words are accurately conveyed today, as: 1) he most certainly taught another god than the true God of the Bible (so we now whatever the nuances, his core message was evil); 2) What really matters is what do the texts of the today's Qur'an actually say, how are they being interpreted - and ESPECIALLY, how are they being interpreted by the Islamists so bent upon killing all in the West, Christians, those of other faiths, and those of differing Islamic interpretations. As Jac is so fond of pointing out, he's mostly concerned with what does a text's plain meaning reveal - unless clearly used allegorically or metaphorically, etc. So the text compels evil actions - why? - because it is being interpreted to mean exactly what it plainly says. And it really doesn't matter one bit whether they still have the authentic words of Muhammad. And what the Islamic texts so plainly say go beyond just exhortations to mindless physical destruction and unspeakable violence, but even worse (as if that were possible - and it is), it contradicts the Bible and the central teachings of the Gospel. It tells us Jesus was not God and was not Resurrected, that faith in Him is just like having faith in a mere prophet, of which they see Muhammad as far His superior. This means the Qur'an is anti-Christ literature inspired by the devil himself. And so what do we see happening amongst so many who take the Qur'an at its commonly understood meanings? Horrorshow stuff, that's what!

As for Dan getting all indignant over how people have supposedly lied about what he's said, most of what everyone is concerned about is that the way he has phrased things about this subject, it at least appeared to suggest that there wasn't anything particularly sinister about what the Qur'an says or what Muslims believe, and as if criticizing and warning of the evil things they have bought into, per the Qur'an, is indeed a terrible thing. Sounded as if much of what he was defending was Islam and not just Muslims. I've not seen one person here attacking Muslims, only their beliefs and terrible resulting actions. And Dan has asserted that raising voices against these things shows unChristian behavior. And then as we've called him or questioned him on these things, he's personally attacked and then played the victim. Won't wash! Accommodating or adopting a politically correct posture towards things that are evil are the least loving things we could ever do.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#66

Post by HappyFlappyTheist » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:39 am

I'm not sure if this is off topic or not, but How isn't Allah (of muslims) the same as YHWH? I've always been under the impression that they are both the Abrahamic God.
pulvis sum

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#67

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:51 am

Allah is only Abrahamic because Muhammad claimed that he was. (Saying that Abraham built the Ka'bha) He (Muhammad) pointed to the Torah and New Testament as inspired texts along with his writings, but had apparently never read either.
Modern Muslim scholars "rectify" this to state that both the Torah and New Testament are inspired by what they agree with in the Qur'an, but changed later. If it contradicts the Qur'an, then it isn't inspired. They'll claim that the New Testament originally did agree with the Qur'an, but can produce no evidence of such with early manuscripts, of course.

That aside, it seems to me that the two are completely different. Allah seems most interested in what Muhammad was interested in. Several convenient revelations were passed down. (Muhammad's uncle having the coolest spot in hell, when Muhammad married his adopted son's wife, Muhammad being allowed more wives than other Muslims, etc)

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#68

Post by HappyFlappyTheist » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:04 pm

Rob wrote: Muhammad being allowed more wives than other Muslims, etc)
Forgive my Biblical ignorance ( no sarcasm, I'm semi-ignorant and possibly wrong), but weren't the kings of old Israel allowed the same?
pulvis sum

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#69

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:09 pm

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:
Rob wrote: Muhammad being allowed more wives than other Muslims, etc)
Forgive my Biblical ignorance ( no sarcasm, I'm semi-ignorant and possibly wrong), but weren't the kings of old Israel allowed the same?
I'm pretty sure not as a revelation from God.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#70

Post by HappyFlappyTheist » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:12 pm

Rob wrote:
HappyFlappyDeist wrote:
Rob wrote: Muhammad being allowed more wives than other Muslims, etc)
Forgive my Biblical ignorance ( no sarcasm, I'm semi-ignorant and possibly wrong), but weren't the kings of old Israel allowed the same?
I'm pretty sure not as a revelation from God.
I informed myself through google, It seems they were going against the will of God and normally suffered consequences for it. So you're right! :clap:

Carry on. :ebiggrin:
pulvis sum

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#71

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:32 pm

RickD wrote:
Dan wrote:
You have purposely misrepresented everything I have said, you have twisted them completely to suit your own needs, that makes you a flat out liar. You really should be praying for yourself Rick, you are the one who has been deceived, you think that lying about a brother in Christ is ok.
Dan,

If you noticed, I put question marks at the end of my questions. When sentences are in the form of a question, it shows that I am asking you what you meant by what you said. It doesn't mean that I was putting words in your mouth, or stating what you meant.
Are you seriously being that dense, may or may not be true as a historical record, not its claims on the metaphysical.
So, in your opinion would it be historically true that God spoke to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel, which is the basis for the Quran?
When I said enlightening it was in reference to the books I have been reading and not the Koran, and yes they were enlightening, it gave me a better understanding of what Muslims actually believe and debunked most of the bull I hear regurgitated on here.
Ok, thanks for clarifying that it was a book about Islam. But I'm still concerned that you take the word of a Muslim over your brothers in Christ. You do realize that as far as Muslims believe, the end justifies the means? In other words, it's ok if they lie to you, if they are doing the will of their god.
Thought I would paste the definition of enlightening because you seem to have a shaky grasp on what it means.
-give (someone) greater knowledge and understanding about a subject or situation.-
So yes learning about what Muslims actually believe and reading as much as I can about the external history of Muhammed has given me a greater knowledge and understanding of the subject. I suggest you do the same as education drives out fear and hatred, ignorance only perpetuates it.
Dan,

I understand the meaning of enlightening. But there's another meaning when pertaining to something spiritual.
Enlighten-
give (someone) spiritual knowledge or insight.
And again, there's no hatred towards anyone from my end. I love Muslims. And I love you too. That's why I'm not afraid to tell you the truth. You need to hear it whether you like it or not. And like I said before, others here who are pointing out your errors, are doing it out of love, and concern for you.

I hope you keep that in mind through all of this.
I can't respond properly because I am on my phone and neither an I really be bothered, but a question mark does not a question make. You made accusations and ended it with a question mark, this does not make it a question and does not make me want to converse with you.

To sum up my position, I think the large majority of Muslim who are peaceful are following their text properly, the extremists are not. I don't agree with Islam as a religion, it is a heavy form of legalism, very similar to the OT laws. I think it is the attitudes here that create hatred and stir up anger, I don't agree with it and I don't think it is of Christ, but hey we are all human and we all do it at different levels.

The only way we can beat extremism (that includes extremism from all religions, Christianity included) is though education and not finger pointing.

But do as you please, I think that things will not change in a hurry, it is human nature to fear what he doesn't understand.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#72

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:37 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
1over137 wrote:Dan,

The Muslims you talk to, if Quran cannot be historically trusted, how they determine which part of the Quran to believe and which part not? What is their Muslim faith based on?
Hey I totally agree, that's why I said it is not an inspired work as everything in it may or may not be true.
Unfortunately they don't really like to discuss these things much and I tread carefully, unlike the nincompoops here. So I am unable to answer your question, but the book I read was quite enlightening and I highly recommend it.
I wonder what would happen if you didn't tread carefully. y:-?

:guns:
Same as what happens with Christians, you should have seen the hatred I got from Christians on FB, just because I believe in evolution, I felt like they wanted to lynch me and if it was 100 years ago in the Deep South of the USA they may well have.

But Muslims in general are very tolerant and are always willing to answer questions on Reddit, I imagine if I insulted them they may get angry but like their Koran says they are commanded to forgive.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#73

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:52 pm

It's not the ones who are "intolerant in general" you need to worry about. An intolerant Christian may well blast you on FB. An intolerant Islamist may well behead you.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#74

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:00 pm

Jac3510 wrote:It's not the ones who are "intolerant in general" you need to worry about. An intolerant Christian may well blast you on FB. An intolerant Islamist may well behead you.
Yea intolerant Christians in Africa kill you if you are homosexual, intolerant evangelicals in the states fund them knowing full well what they do. I could list a heap more atrocities perpetuated by Christians in the modern day. Matthew 5:21-26

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#75

Post by Philip » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:20 pm

Just because people call themselves or the media labels people as "Christians," does not mean they are such. That's a hugely important distinction. Many of the Nazis would have considered themselves Christians, and the vast majority of them are no doubt "Christians" in hell!
Yea intolerant Christians in Africa kill you if you are homosexual, intolerant evangelicals in the states fund them knowing full well what they do. I could list a heap more atrocities perpetuated by Christians in the modern day. Matthew 5:21-26
NO, what you can do is list a heap of people committing atrocities that are not truly Christians, even though they may identify with that label - which is meaningless. And you well know that such atrocities are considered evil in the eyes of God. But let's contrast that with Muslims killing based upon the teachings of the Qur'an: Such atrocites are commanded in their "holy" book. Those committing such hateful and despicable things could very reasonably be seen as dutiful Muslims following what the read in their Qur'an - a huge difference from so-called christians violating the mandates of the Lord. Muslims doing such things are, in fact, doing precisely what their holy book commands. Good Muslims, indeed. One can play politically correct games all day, but to deny this is to deny what the Qur'an actually says, and that Islamic genocide isn't fully in line with its teachings!

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