Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusades

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#31

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:12 pm

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:What an entertaining debate. :popcornduo:
Agreed. This is a disagreement between someone who has mixed humanism with a bit of pseudoChristian lingo and people who are knowledgeable about the Word of God.

In case you are interested, The Generous Qur'an by Usama Dakdok is an English translation of the Koran that doesn't whitewash the vileness of the original Arabic.

FL :D
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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#32

Post by Philip » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:14 pm

A brief primer on Islam vs. Christianity, put together by Norman Geisler, President of Southern Evangelical Seminary and Abdul Saleeb, a former Muslim and now pastors a Muslim convert congregation in the United States: http://www.equip.org/PDF/DM809.pdf

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#33

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:14 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
HappyFlappyDeist wrote:What an entertaining debate. :popcornduo:
Agreed. This is a disagreement between someone who has mixed humanism with a bit of pseudoChristian lingo and people who are knowledgeable about the Word of God.

In case you are interested, The Generous Qur'an by Usama Dakdok is an English translation of the Koran that doesn't whitewash the vileness of the original Arabic.

FL :D

What type of Christian constantly insults people, I think it is plain to see what type of person you are.
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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#34

Post by Philip » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:25 pm

A brief primer on Islam vs. Christianity, put together by Norman Geisler, President of Southern Evangelical Seminary and Abdul Saleeb, a former Muslim and now pastors a Muslim convert congregation in the United States: http://www.equip.org/PDF/DM809.pdf

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#35

Post by Philip » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:36 pm

Here's where it went off the rails!
I am not saying there are not problematic passages within it, just saying we may not have all the facts and that all this bull about it being a religion of violence is just crapola.
Decide for yourself: The Qur'an contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Yeah, Islam just teaches it's followers to be a bunch of peace-loving hippies: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran ... olence.htm

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#36

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:39 pm

Philip wrote:Here's where it went off the rails!
I am not saying there are not problematic passages within it, just saying we may not have all the facts and that all this bull about it being a religion of violence is just crapola.
Decide for yourself: The Qur'an contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Yeah, Islam just teaches it's followers to be a bunch of peace-loving hippies: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran ... olence.htm
They were called to war because they kept getting invaded, other than that they are meant to be peaceful, they only killed infidels because they wouldn't leave them alone.

Funnily Israel did the exact same thing, unless they integrated into their society they killed any people who tried to invade them.

In context they all were in a time of war, it does not apply to today.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#37

Post by Philip » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:04 pm

They were called to war because they kept getting invaded, other than that they are meant to be peaceful, they only killed infidels because they wouldn't leave them alone.
And so, Daniel, they were called to war by WHOM? Some god named Allah? So you're defending what the Qur'an states Allah - a false god - says? Do you realize the unbelievable carnage these teachings have wreaked and continue to?!!! And to compare these to the Bible and what the Lord commanded? That's indefensible! Notice that the teachings of Allah even say no mercy is to be shown to the People of the Book (Christians!). That's what you are defending? You're comparing Scripture to some made-up, demonic teachings in a false religion?

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#38

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:36 pm

Philip wrote:
They were called to war because they kept getting invaded, other than that they are meant to be peaceful, they only killed infidels because they wouldn't leave them alone.
And so, Daniel, they were called to war by WHOM? Some god named Allah? So you're defending what the Qur'an states Allah - a false god - says? Do you realize the unbelievable carnage these teachings have wreaked and continue to?!!! And to compare these to the Bible and what the Lord commanded? That's indefensible! Notice that the teachings of Allah even say no mercy is to be shown to the People of the Book (Christians!). That's what you are defending? You're comparing Scripture to some made-up, demonic teachings in a false religion?
I never said war was good, I think all war is abhorrent, I am not defending Muhammed's actions, I am just saying that the Koran was written at a time of war, which gives context to the passages and most Muslims realise this and that is why they are peaceful people. If they were being invaded then well I guess they wouldn't be so peaceful now, would they. Just the same as when the US invades people, it is disgusting and shouldn't be tolerated, it is not a right action.

I am getting really tired of you and others putting words in my mouth, I find it really un-Christ like and not something Christians should do, it is basically lying and misrepresentation of a brother in Christ.

You should be ashamed of yourself. :shakehead:
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#39

Post by Jac3510 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:19 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:they only killed infidels because they wouldn't leave them alone.
Ah, the great lie . . . you do know that Mohammad spread Islam by the sword, right, and that he and his followers for the next hundred years were the ones invading the people around them, right?

I don't doubt that there are peaceful Muslims and that some, if not most, Muslims interpret their holy book to teach peace and non-violence. But to suggest that Islamists only interpret the Koran in a militant way in response to western aggression is just to be badly misinformed. And, unfortunately, it's that kind of rhetoric that is getting people--Christians, in particular--murdered every day.

I hope you reconsider your position.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#40

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:25 pm

Jac3510 wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:they only killed infidels because they wouldn't leave them alone.
Ah, the great lie . . . you do know that Mohammad spread Islam by the sword, right, and that he and his followers for the next hundred years were the ones invading the people around them, right?

I don't doubt that there are peaceful Muslims and that some, if not most, Muslims interpret their holy book to teach peace and non-violence. But to suggest that Islamists only interpret the Koran in a militant way in response to western aggression is just to be badly misinformed. And, unfortunately, it's that kind of rhetoric that is getting people--Christians, in particular--murdered every day.

I hope you reconsider your position.
Keh? I never said they taught it in response to western aggression, it was in response to the wars raging with the surrounding nations. I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. y:-/
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#41

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:29 pm

Daniel,

We are going only on the words you posted. We added nothing to your own words!

As Philip pointed out, You said this:
I am not saying there are not problematic passages within it, just saying we may not have all the facts and that all this bull about it being a religion of violence is just crapola.
And even before that, you said this:
Sorry Paul this is blatantly false, the problem we have is that there is no internal context to the Koran from which we can decide on how to interpret passages, the Bible is just as violent and bloody, but we have internal context that gives us a grounding for correct interpretation. I would suggest a book called "The Eternal Message of the Prophet Muhammed", it is a book written by a lay Muslim just after WW11 for new Muslims to the faith, very interesting and eye opening book into the world of the Muslim faith.
And you also said this:
Why do you think people kill people Rick, they kill because of hatred, they kill because they do not try to understand and accept others, what you guys are promoting is only the start of it, but it will eventually grow from there as it always does.


In the context of the period and events, Muhammed was not violent and whether Aisha was 9 is in dispute, so he probably was not a paedophile, and you are reading it with modern glasses.
I tell you what, if I am ever so misinformed, and flat out wrong on an issue, as you are on this issue, I pray that you all here respect me enough to show he the truth!

Dan,
As a brother in Christ, you are so wrong on this. And I pray that you see where you are wrong, instead of blaming others for showing you that you're wrong.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#42

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:29 pm

It seems to me as is the usual case with this forum, is that people don't try to understand what someone is saying and instead inject what they think the person is saying onto them.

I really wish people would take more time to come to understanding before making accusations that have no basis in truth, but what can I expect from people who like to attack first and ask questions later. :mrgreen:
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#43

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:32 pm

RickD wrote:Daniel,

We are going only on the words you posted. We added nothing to your own words!

As Philip pointed out, You said this:
I am not saying there are not problematic passages within it, just saying we may not have all the facts and that all this bull about it being a religion of violence is just crapola.
And even before that, you said this:
Sorry Paul this is blatantly false, the problem we have is that there is no internal context to the Koran from which we can decide on how to interpret passages, the Bible is just as violent and bloody, but we have internal context that gives us a grounding for correct interpretation. I would suggest a book called "The Eternal Message of the Prophet Muhammed", it is a book written by a lay Muslim just after WW11 for new Muslims to the faith, very interesting and eye opening book into the world of the Muslim faith.
And you also said this:
Why do you think people kill people Rick, they kill because of hatred, they kill because they do not try to understand and accept others, what you guys are promoting is only the start of it, but it will eventually grow from there as it always does.


In the context of the period and events, Muhammed was not violent and whether Aisha was 9 is in dispute, so he probably was not a paedophile, and you are reading it with modern glasses.
I tell you what, if I am ever so misinformed, and flat out wrong on an issue, as you are on this issue, I pray that you all here respect me enough to show he the truth!

Dan,
As a brother in Christ, you are so wrong on this. And I pray that you see where you are wrong, instead of blaming others for showing you that you're wrong.

I think you are wrong brother, you haven't shown me I am wrong in any way but have instead tried to confuse the situation with allegations about me which are not true and I will pray for you also, that you may see that hatred is not the path of a Christian and that understanding people and loving them is the path of the righteousness.

Just so there's no confusion the context I was talking about comes from outside of the Koran (what little there is of it, maybe you should study it)
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#44

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:41 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
RickD wrote:Daniel,

We are going only on the words you posted. We added nothing to your own words!

As Philip pointed out, You said this:
I am not saying there are not problematic passages within it, just saying we may not have all the facts and that all this bull about it being a religion of violence is just crapola.
And even before that, you said this:
Sorry Paul this is blatantly false, the problem we have is that there is no internal context to the Koran from which we can decide on how to interpret passages, the Bible is just as violent and bloody, but we have internal context that gives us a grounding for correct interpretation. I would suggest a book called "The Eternal Message of the Prophet Muhammed", it is a book written by a lay Muslim just after WW11 for new Muslims to the faith, very interesting and eye opening book into the world of the Muslim faith.
And you also said this:
Why do you think people kill people Rick, they kill because of hatred, they kill because they do not try to understand and accept others, what you guys are promoting is only the start of it, but it will eventually grow from there as it always does.


In the context of the period and events, Muhammed was not violent and whether Aisha was 9 is in dispute, so he probably was not a paedophile, and you are reading it with modern glasses.
I tell you what, if I am ever so misinformed, and flat out wrong on an issue, as you are on this issue, I pray that you all here respect me enough to show he the truth!

Dan,
As a brother in Christ, you are so wrong on this. And I pray that you see where you are wrong, instead of blaming others for showing you that you're wrong.

I think you are wrong brother, you haven't shown me I am wrong in any way but have instead tried to confuse the situation with allegations about me which are not true and I will pray for you also, that you may see that hatred is not the path of a Christian and that understanding people and loving them is the path of the righteousness.
Dan,
You do understand that I can love a Muslim, while hating the evil religion they follow, don't you?

I do not hate any person. I'm not promoting hate, by telling the truth about an evil religion. In fact, when I point out that Islam is evil, it's out of my love for those trapped in it!

All I can say, is if all the people here who are disagreeing with you, disagreed with me on an issue as important as this, I'd look at myself to see where I'm wrong. Every one of the people disagreeing with you here, including myself, loves you as a brother in Christ. You need to take that into consideration, over some Muslim you are talking to, who is trying to defend his religion at any cost.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#45

Post by Philip » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:45 pm

Daniel: I am getting really tired of you and others putting words in my mouth, I find it really un-Christ like and not something Christians should do, it is basically lying and misrepresentation of a brother in Christ.
But, Dan, these are YOUR words:
They were called to war because they kept getting invaded, other than that they are meant to be peaceful, they only killed infidels because they wouldn't leave them alone.
What is written in the Quran, the passages my linked info detailed, is indefensible. Not to mention that Muhammad lied and said they were from god himself. And you are asserting that it had to do them being invaded. Well, clearly those paying obedient attention to those words are killing and have killed countless thousands precisely due to the teachings in the Qur'an. And they did it LONG after Muhammad wrote those words. And yet you defend the words by saying they were merely meant to be defensive and that the words in the Qur'an are basically peaceful. But those words are evil, no matter who wrote them or why. And your words ("... they only killed infidels because they wouldn't leave them alone.") - well, some were killed defensively, but make no mistake, they also killed then as much as they do now, largely because of the evil instructions in the Qur'an - let's not forget that the Muslim killing fields did not end with the conquests of Muhammad. And he did not stop at defensive actions - that's revisionist crapola!
Daniel: The Koran was written at a time of war, which gives context to the passages and most Muslims realize this and that is why they are peaceful people.


To be sure, not ALL Muslims are violent. But an increasing number of those extremely aggressive and violent are precisely so because they are driven by the lies in the Qur'an, believing them to be from Allah. Daniel, it's the violent teachings and those following them that have brought hell to earth. This has been historically true as well. It's a simple fact of history! Not to mention they are also killing each other over which version of Islam - whatever grandson of Muhammad various groups are adhering to. Millions of Muslims don't know the Qur'an much better than many so-called Christians know the Bible. Islam is compulsory. It's is so zealously violent that anyone publicly disagreeing with the Qur'an, renouncing Islam, or embracing Christianity will receive death. And the mullah's and the extremists take the Qua-ran at its literal words (when it comes to violence) - which are not difficult to interpret, as they are extremely clear! So don't try to defend what is written as just understandable and meant as defensive language at a time of invasion - that's ridiculous!

For ANY Christian (not picking on Daniel) to defend the words found in the Qur'an, well, that's really wrong, and dangerous. And that's very different from defending Muslims whom are peaceful - as many clearly are.

Daniel, you do believe that the Qur'an is completely false and contradictory of the Bible, don't you? Please don't play the victim if you defend one shred of what is written in the Qur'an - not on this forum! Defend peace-loving Muslims all you want. But please don't shred history by asserting that Muhammad and his followers only wanted peace and to be left alone - then or now. An enormous amount of blood then and after Muhammad, has been shed my murdering Muslim hordes.

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