Nelson Mandela dies

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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#31

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:40 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I'm hopping lightly through the field of crazy fundies. :troll:
Careful... if we bite you then you'll turn into one of us! Mmm... kangaroo meat! :jumping: :shijacked:
Last edited by Kurieuo on Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#32

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:41 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:I'm hopping lightly through the field of crazy fundies. :troll:
Careful... if we bite you then you'll turn into one of us! :jumping: :shijacked:
:pound:
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#33

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:49 pm

A well balanced view from Ravi


Ravi Zacharias
As I look at this picture of Nelson Mandela and consider his legacy, I mourn the loss of not just a person, but an example for all politicians. While his early years were more aggressive, his veteran years spoke of wisdom gained through steps and missteps. Where are the leaders like him today? Many of those who are eulogizing him have evidently not learned from him.
http://www.rzim.org/rzim-news/ravi-zach ... d-freedom/
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#34

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:05 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:A well balanced view from Ravi
Ravi Zacharias
As I look at this picture of Nelson Mandela and consider his legacy, I mourn the loss of not just a person, but an example for all politicians. While his early years were more aggressive, his veteran years spoke of wisdom gained through steps and missteps. Where are the leaders like him today? Many of those who are eulogizing him have evidently not learned from him.
http://www.rzim.org/rzim-news/ravi-zach ... d-freedom/
Certainly well spoken, but how do you know Ravi was presenting a balanced view? That Ravi was not speaking from a position where he was inundated with the same picture I myself had of Mandela until I purposefully researched the matter?

It is good you are reading what's out there though.

Re: the pastor in the YouTube videos presented earlier, I actually feel he was less than fair with Mandela. And like he mocked Mandela not being able to wear sunnies in prison, Mandela could mock him for any distress caused by the tax department. You don't belittle someone else's pain, and that is what the pastor did. Mandela was willing to somewhat listen, but the bold words of the pastor were foolish in my opinion.

If anything, I feel Mandela was quite mixed over his former life, later life and those around him and whom he had esteemed. However, I always wondered about what made him so great in the eyes of many people. I didn't know much about him... but now I've looked into the matter a bit I do not see the same virtues that others seem to see.

Write me off as fundamentalist if you want. I more seriously don't know how that came into the picture, but neither do I really care. It's irrelevant.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#35

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:57 am

Certainly well spoken, but how do you know Ravi was presenting a balanced view? That Ravi was not speaking from a position where he was inundated with the same picture I myself had of Mandela until I purposefully researched the matter?
He presents a balanced view from what I know of Mandela's history. A person like Ravi would in my opinion be well read and would research people he respected, at least that's the kind of guy I see him to be. It's not like the history of Mandela is shrouded in secrecy, we learnt about it in school.
Write me off as fundamentalist if you want. I more seriously don't know how that came into the picture, but neither do I really care. It's irrelevant.
It was a joke, I thought that was plainly obvious.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#36

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:13 am

Really, you learnt about him in school? I never did. What was taught?

Ravi isn't infallible. Even the brightest may lack information or talk from ignorance. And Ravi doesn't go into a whole lot of detail on Mandela except a very general analysis.

I disagree with too much of what Mandela stood for, including what he did when he came to power.

The information is there for all to read and make their own judgement about the guy.
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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#37

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:46 am

I emailed Ravi to see if he has looked into and considered Mandela deeply. Will see if I get a response.

However, I also looked in Peter Hammond. Given his proximity and knowledge seems a more appropriate authority. I have no reason to question him and believe him to be a reliable source and just calling it as it is.

Understanding the attacks on Peter Hammond, Frontline Ministries
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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#38

Post by RickD » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:38 am

Daniel,

I see your Ravi Zacharias, and raise you one Walid Shoebat:
http://shoebat.com/2013/12/06/oba-mande ... ommunists/
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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#39

Post by Philip » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:50 pm

One thing is for sure: When assessing someone's life and impact, you not only need to look at ALL they have done, but also the entire progression and arc of life, ending with the old man in winter. If we were to look at King David or the Apostle Paul, we would see many disturbing things on the way to how they ended up. And I'm making no apologies for Nelson M. And, certainly, the masses love to latch onto how popular sentiment paints people as saints or sinners. The reality is such figures as Mandela are quite a bit of both. And historical figures are often vilified in their own time and yet, through time, distance and events, they are sometimes viewed rather differently.

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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#40

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:01 pm

Philip wrote:One thing is for sure: When assessing someone's life and impact, you not only need to look at ALL they have done, but also the entire progression and arc of life, ending with the old man in winter. If we were to look at King David or the Apostle Paul, we would see many disturbing things on the way to how they ended up. And I'm making no apologies for Nelson M. And, certainly, the masses love to latch onto how popular sentiment paints people as saints or sinners. The reality is such figures as Mandela are quite a bit of both. And historical figures are often vilified in their own time and yet, through time, distance and events, they are sometimes viewed rather differently.
Finally a single voice of reason. :clap:
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#41

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:06 pm

Kurieuo wrote:Really, you learnt about him in school? I never did. What was taught?
Mate you talking over 15 years ago (edit. Actually closer to 20 years), I remember it was all over the news at the time and we learnt about his early life before imprisonment and how he was released and his rise to power.
Since then I have read more and like you I don't condone all his actions, but at the same time I am neither condemning him, I will however celebrate the goods things he has done.
Last edited by Danieltwotwenty on Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#42

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:55 pm

Thought this quote was interesting, considering you guys think he has a "God like status".

In describing his life, Mandela stated that "I was not a messiah, but an ordinary man who had become a leader because of extraordinary circumstances."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#43

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:56 pm

What really ruins the picture for me of Mandela, is not necessarily his past (although eye-opening), but rather his sanctioning of killing unborn babies. This is such a big issue for me that I find it impossible to overlook.

Re: Communism, I think the issues with it are largely lost on many today. Such that it is almost a non-issue. In fact, one of my great grandfather apparently smuggled pamphlets for it during the war. It'd be interesting I think to read Mandela's book.

And then you have Mandela's endorsement of organisations and continued ideologies that want to see the "boers" (which has taken on a derogatory term similar to "nigger") all shot and killed (who are in fact being killed without much policing). Far from the Mandela we see who is peace-loving and a president for all who are black or white, there is a strong undercurrent and support for reverse racism.

The nice and forgiving Mandela you can picture sitting down to a cup a tea and having some deep and meaningful discussion about humanity and peace, is the nice shiny exterior for Western PR which contradicts his inner beliefs. Such that, this "good" person is in fact an act. Making it not a matter of the "good" Mandela vs the "bad" Mandela, but an exterior respectable Mandela vs the hidden inner Mandela.

We're all entitled to our opinions. I can understand why some just want to accept the exterior that Mandela presented. Makes the world feel nicer, and the guy is now dead. But we are to judge people by their fruits and I don't see many fruits. He did not end apartheid, but a movement did which he was apart of which was quite extreme and violent in their pursuits.

I think time is a true indicator of a person and in Mandela's case I believe there will be a very different picture of this man even 20 years from now when more and more skeletons are revealed. So think enough has been said here, at least by me. Many links were presented back that in my opinion are quite damning. If you have read them, and watched the videos... then we just disagree in our conclusions about the guy. No point in :beat:
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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#44

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:05 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Thought this quote was interesting, considering you guys think he has a "God like status".

In describing his life, Mandela stated that "I was not a messiah, but an ordinary man who had become a leader because of extraordinary circumstances."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela
You know, I think Mandela is quite revealing at times even was honest with who is was and his thoughts.

Perhaps Mandela isn't to blame at all for misconceptions. He clearly endorsed violence as a means to an end when he said non-violence is not superior (and based on his earlier life). He clearly didn't mind being a part of a pledge to kill all boars while in his presidency. He wrote a book on Communism that was used against him earlier on in his life, which I actually want to get a hold of and read.

I can't help but think he was perhaps amused by his celebrity status in the West, such that he enjoyed shaking hands with his friends and enemies and getting a photo. What I've read doesn't seem much hidden at all by Mandela himself or what can be readily verified, but is certainly a different picture then we often get. Any "god-like" status was not created by Mandela, but others who revered him.
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Re: Nelson Mandela dies

#45

Post by Philip » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:32 pm

Well, human legacies and blood-soaked histories are one thing. As it's who and what we are IN THE END that personally matters. But the ONLY judge that truly matters is Jesus - and NM is in one of only two possible places. And no popular opinion will change whichever reality he has now gone to.

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