America. A Christian nation?

[Gman]

But I digress.

It appears that the Canadian's know more about American history than do the Americans.. Not surprising.

[Canuckster1127]

But I digress.

It appears that the Canadian's know more about American history than do the Americans.. Not surprising.

I've lived in the US since 1978 and read a lot. But in general, yes, I think many Canadians know american history in general better than most americans.

[Gman]

But I digress.

It appears that the Canadian's know more about American history than do the Americans.. Not surprising.

I've lived in the US since 1978 and read a lot. But in general, yes, I think many Canadians know american history in general better than most americans.

Why am I not shocked by this...

[jlay]

Every word of lines 10-28 is consistent with Christianity.

Hello.
Something being consistent with Christianity doesn't make it Christian.

You'll see that Christianity is there as the guiding principle.

I have said, over, and over and over and over, that I believe the FFs were influenced by their Christian heritage. What more do I have to say. What many here have failed to do, is provide empirical evidence that the influence of Christian thinking, makes the USA a Christian nation. Yes, the FFs were influenced by Christianity. So was Great Britain, which they sought independence from.

Atheism (in any of its putrid forms) would never, ever, ever have produced such a nation as the USA.

Agreed. Neither would a litany of other religious or non-religious ideologies.

I've given you scripture, and you want me to try to find a direct quote from an founding father to ease your skepticism? So you don't agree with 1 Corinthians 1:27-29? I'm saying that the idea of all men being created equal in the eyes of God is a Christian principle. I've given you scripture to back this up. If you do not agree, then fine, but scripture is scripture. In fact, I urge you to show me how Christ DID NOT exalt the lowly man and make man equal ...

Danny, I really suggest you back off and stop with this tactic. This is just wrong. I trust the bible, and view it as God's inspired word. That has nothing to do with this. Trying to infer, that because I don't agree with your position about America being a Christian nation, that I somehow reject Christ's teaching is absurd. Yes, I fail to see the specific direct link to this verse of scripture and the DOI. And even if you could provide some evidence of this link (which you haven't) it would still not support your position.

I agree that the bible supports the equality of men. After re-reading my statement it would appear that I have inferred it is not. That was not the point of my statement. I should have been more specific, but that was not the gist of what I was driving at. I phrased this wrong. Let me rephrase.
I should have stated, "If "all men are created equal" is a Christian principle, how does this influence establish the USA as a Christian nation?"
Certainly one can demonstrate that equality among men, is in agreement with biblical teaching. NO doubt. But we must note that equality among men, is not and exclusive Christian position. In fact Thomas Paine, a FF and openly non-Christian, also adhered to such principles. In fact, Paine's writings (which called for an "Immediate declaration of independence) were highly influential to Jefferson's composing of the DOI. There are many non-Christians who hold this same position. As there are many Christians who believe that all men are NOT created equal.

I do not appreciate you trying to manipulate my position. I agree that Christian thinking did influence the FFs. Please stop trying to prove your point, by inferring that I believe that the FFs were not influenced by Christianity. I think I've made that point multiple times now. So far you have said that the USA is a Christian nation. Do the founding documents establish the USA as a Christian nation? No. Were the founding fathers influenced by Christianity? Yes. As well as MANY other factors. Especially political. If you examine the list of grievances in the DOI, you will see that they are exclusively political.

I think it is also important to note the difference in the DOI and the constitution. The Constitution establishes the law of the land. And it is blatantly non-religious.

Circular reasoning is this. "Equality among men is a Christian principle." True. "Equality among men is in the DOI." True. "Therefore, the USA is a Christian nation."

Jlay, if you cannot see this statement in the DOI as being directly linked to Christianity then I'm sorry. I, however, can and it sits there, nice and snug in the DOI. Right before your eyes.

I can certainly see the influence of Christianity. But how do you make the leap that this establishes the USA as a Christian nation? The DOI only sought independence from British tyranny. (A Christian theocracy, BTW) It did not establish any law, or governing of the states.
"that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do."

In fact, the DOI demonstrates that each state was to be its own separate, independent, and sovereign state.

[Byblos]

• - America is not a Christian Nation

• - America is majority Christian

• - Only God knows if they're truly Christian

Does that pretty much sum up everyone's opinions on the matter?

[DannyM]

Danny, I really suggest you back off and stop with this tactic. This is just wrong. I trust the bible, and view it as God's inspired word. That has nothing to do with this. Trying to infer, that because I don't agree with your position about America being a Christian nation, that I somehow reject Christ's teaching is absurd. Yes, I fail to see the specific direct link to this verse of scripture and the DOI. And even if you could provide some evidence of this link (which you haven't) it would still not support your position.

I never said you are rejecting Christ's teaching; I think you are failing to see Christ's teaching as linked to the DOI, and as the foundation upon which your nation was established. There is no getting away from the fact. I actually *have* provided evidence of the link. I'm sure you understand the difference between evidence and proof ... I'll provide more: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ." Galatians 3:28. Where do you think the concept of equality of men in the eyes of the creator comes from?

I agree that the bible supports the equality of men. After re-reading my statement it would appear that I have inferred it is not. That was not the point of my statement. I should have been more specific, but that was not the gist of what I was driving at. I phrased this wrong. Let me rephrase.
I should have stated, "If "all men are created equal" is a Christian principle, how does this influence establish the USA as a Christian nation?"

It influences the USA as a Christian nation in an immeasurable way. You simply cannot put a price on this fundamental principle establishing such a land of people, free from tyranny and equal in dignity.

Certainly one can demonstrate that equality among men, is in agreement with biblical teaching. NO doubt. But we must note that equality among men, is not and exclusive Christian position. In fact Thomas Paine, a FF and openly non-Christian, also adhered to such principles. In fact, Paine's writings (which called for an "Immediate declaration of independence) were highly influential to Jefferson's composing of the DOI. There are many non-Christians who hold this same position. As there are many Christians who believe that all men are NOT created equal..

Again, from where do you think Paine got such principles? Assuming you can show me that Jefferson was influenced by Paine in writing this particular sentence, how do you explain the origin of such a principle? Did Paine come up with this all on his own? And why did Jefferson say it was "self-evident"? It was/is not self-evident at all. Man is certainly *not* equal; in intelligence, in size, in strength etc. Inequality is what is really self-evident in human nature. Jefferson was asserting the morality of equality among men. The precious, moral principle of the equal dignity and equal worth of human life is directly drawn from Christ.

I do not appreciate you trying to manipulate my position. I agree that Christian thinking did influence the FFs. Please stop trying to prove your point, by inferring that I believe that the FFs were not influenced by Christianity. I think I've made that point multiple times now. So far you have said that the USA is a Christian nation. Do the founding documents establish the USA as a Christian nation? No. Were the founding fathers influenced by Christianity? Yes. As well as MANY other factors. Especially political. If you examine the list of grievances in the DOI, you will see that they are exclusively political..

And don't you see that this just adds to the FF's ingenuity? A thocratic state, as had been seen in England, proved that divisiveness reigns, instead of unity. The underlying principle of all men being created equal was fundamental for the FF's to then be able to proceed united under this ultimate and precious banner, instead of trying to set up a theocracy with diffences and bickering being the inevitable outcome among Christians with different denominational ideas. The genius here needs to be recognised and applauded, for goodness sake.

I think it is also important to note the difference in the DOI and the constitution. The Constitution establishes the law of the land. And it is blatantly non-religious..

Finally, The Constitution closes with the phrase, "Done in Convention . . . in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-seven, and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth." Since eleven years and two months had passed between the signing of the Declaration of Independence and the drafting of the U.S. Constitution, the nation was in its twelfth year. Thus, the nation was chartered by the Declaration, not the Constitution.

The whole basis rests on the Declaration. The Constitution proceeds from the rock-solid foundation of the DOI; indeed, the Constitution rightly recognises and salutes the DOI as being its base.

Circular reasoning is this. "Equality among men is a Christian principle." True. "Equality among men is in the DOI." True. "Therefore, the USA is a Christian nation.".

It's hardly circular when it is right.

I can certainly see the influence of Christianity. But how do you make the leap that this establishes the USA as a Christian nation? The DOI only sought independence from British tyranny. (A Christian theocracy, BTW) It did not establish any law, or governing of the states.
"that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do."

I understand all that. You seem to think I'm arguing for a thocracy, Jlay; you couldn't be further from the truth. I'm saying America's independence was founded on a fundamental Christian principle. Everything else proceeds from there. Even Jefferson argued that faith is the very foundation for liberty: "And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not violated but with His wrath?"

George Washington, in his farewell address: "Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion."

The FF's were clever. They sought to exclude all theological differences so that they could proceed with true democracy and run the country appropriately.

[RickD]

Danny, what country did our founders leave? It was England, which could be categorized as a christian nation. That's all I meant.

Rick, this is the biggest false statement I think I have ever read. England was a Christian country, and your small-c fetish is just odd. Do you have any idea why your founding fathers "left" England?

Danny, England didn't have a majority of christians? I don't have a small c fetish. As I said before, It's the same as God, and god. Our ff left England because they weren't allowed to worship freely in England because the christian church of England wouldn't allow free worship.

[DannyM]

Danny, what country did our founders leave? It was England, which could be categorized as a christian nation. That's all I meant.

Rick, this is the biggest false statement I think I have ever read. England was a Christian country, and your small-c fetish is just odd. Do you have any idea why your founding fathers "left" England?

Danny, England didn't have a majority of christians? I don't have a small c fetish. As I said before, It's the same as God, and god. Our ff left England because they weren't allowed to worship freely in England because the christian church of England wouldn't allow free worship.

Rick, show me where you get this information from... ?

[RickD]

Danny, what country did our founders leave? It was England, which could be categorized as a christian nation. That's all I meant.

Rick, this is the biggest false statement I think I have ever read. England was a Christian country, and your small-c fetish is just odd. Do you have any idea why your founding fathers "left" England?

Danny, England didn't have a majority of christians? I don't have a small c fetish. As I said before, It's the same as God, and god. Our ff left England because they weren't allowed to worship freely in England because the christian church of England wouldn't allow free worship.

Rick, show me where you get this information from... ?

No, you didn't say the magic word.

[RickD]

Danny, I didn't open this thread to argue more with you. I finished that with you on the other thread. Are you telling me that England wasn't a christian nation, or are you just trying to ruffle my feathers?

[DannyM]

Danny, I didn't open this thread to argue more with you. I finished that with you on the other thread. Are you telling me that England wasn't a christian nation, or are you just trying to ruffle my feathers?

Rick, you're taking this too personally; I'm not arguing with you. I'm asking you to show me how England was not a Christian country in the 17th century. I've been asking you this since you started asserting it in the other thread. That's all I've done, ask you to show me evidence for the claim...

[jlay]

It influences the USA as a Christian nation in an immeasurable way. You simply cannot put a price on this fundamental principle establishing such a land of people, free from tyranny and equal in dignity.

Influence. Yes. Not arguing that. If you want to say the USA is influenced by Christianity, you are going to get no argument from me.

Again, from where do you think Paine got such principles? Assuming you can show me that Jefferson was influenced by Paine in writing this particular sentence, how do you explain the origin of such a principle?

-Thomas Paine was blatantly anti-Christian. He is oft referred to as the "Father of the American Revolution."
I didn't say Paine influenced Jeffereson in writing "one" particular sentence. Paine's "Common Sense", status and influence as a FF, is well documented in US history.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/deism/

Jefferson was asserting the morality of equality among men.

Jefferson did not pen the DOI alone. Although the main author, it was heavily influenced and John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Robert R. Livingston and Roger Sherman. Along with the entire assembly of Congress. No question the DOI asserts equality. That's agreed. And no question it acknowledges a creator. Those are indisputable facts. For the umpteenth time, I'm not arguing those facts with you.

The genius here needs to be recognised and applauded, for goodness sake.

Agreed. I'm insulted that you would imply that I am not. That is not the topic at hand. I agree with the genius of these men. They were genius NOT to attempt to establish a Christian nation. They new, that earthly hands would` only corrupt what is divine. Only Christ Himself can produce such a Kingdom. The government of men, no matter how impressive, will fail. Christ's government will never fail. There is a great quote by a FF regarding such. I wish I could find it.

indeed, the Constitution rightly recognises and salutes the DOI as being its base.

It does? I've read the constitution and I only remember that it acknowledges US independence regarding the date. The DOI was actually signed before the war had been barely started, much less won. It ended in 1783. I would agree that it is foundational, as it would be impossible to have a constitution, if independence had not been obtained.

The FF's were clever. They sought to exclude all theological differences so that they could proceed with true democracy and run the country appropriately.

Yes, they established democracy. Actually, if we want to nit pick we'd say they established a republic. The USA is a DEMOCRATIC nation. Either way, I agree, they excluded all theological differences. They did this by not establishing a country of any religion. Total religious freedom.

"Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion."

Great quote. But what does it have to do with our topic. If the USA was a 'Christian' nation, then why would he have to endorse religion. The fact is that the founding documents to not establish any religious adherance. The DOI ackowledges a 'creator.' The Constitution recognizes no religion or diety of any kind. That is a fact my friend.

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not violated but with His wrath?"

Yep, he said it. Read it a little closer. Guess what he didn't say it in? The DOI.

[RickD]

Danny, I didn't open this thread to argue more with you. I finished that with you on the other thread. Are you telling me that England wasn't a christian nation, or are you just trying to ruffle my feathers?

Rick, you're taking this too personally; I'm not arguing with you. I'm asking you to show me how England was not a Christian country in the 17th century. I've been asking you this since you started asserting it in the other thread. That's all I've done, ask you to show me evidence for the claim...

Danny, I wouldn't attempt to show that, because I believe England was a christian country. That is my whole point. England had an official Church of England. America doesn't.

[DannyM]

Danny, I didn't open this thread to argue more with you. I finished that with you on the other thread. Are you telling me that England wasn't a christian nation, or are you just trying to ruffle my feathers?

Rick, you're taking this too personally; I'm not arguing with you. I'm asking you to show me how England was not a Christian country in the 17th century. I've been asking you this since you started asserting it in the other thread. That's all I've done, ask you to show me evidence for the claim...

Danny, I wouldn't attempt to show that, because I believe England was a christian country. That is my whole point. England had an official Church of England. America doesn't.

But why the small-c if you're acknowledging England was a Christian nation? It's Christian-"ness" had nothing to do with the Church of England.

[RickD]

Danny, I didn't open this thread to argue more with you. I finished that with you on the other thread. Are you telling me that England wasn't a christian nation, or are you just trying to ruffle my feathers?

Rick, you're taking this too personally; I'm not arguing with you. I'm asking you to show me how England was not a Christian country in the 17th century. I've been asking you this since you started asserting it in the other thread. That's all I've done, ask you to show me evidence for the claim...

Danny, I wouldn't attempt to show that, because I believe England was a christian country. That is my whole point. England had an official Church of England. America doesn't.

But why the small-c if you're acknowledging England was a Christian nation? It's Christian-"ness" had nothing to do with the Church of England.

Danny, I think England was and is nominally Christian just like America. Again, we disagree about that, I know.