Have we crossed the line yet?

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edwardmurphy
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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#46

Post by edwardmurphy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:21 am

Stu wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:07 am
Yeah it's actually very sad to see this happening in modern day America. That they actually want to tread on, or oppose, freedom of speech is just mind-blowing to me. Can't fathom it. But then I'm a libertarian.

So it's freedom of speech, as long as it coincides with my views. Such a dangerous precedent they are setting.
Free speech isn't under attack in the United States. That's a right-wing lie. People are still free to say whatever they want, with a few reasonable and long-standing exceptions, without fear of being shut down by the government. Whats more, corporations are now able to use unlimited amounts of money on political speech, and preachers can talk politics from the pulpit while keeping their tax-exempt status. You can even decline to sell a cake to a gay couple on the grounds that selling a cake is speech.

The "free speech" rallies are right-wing [nonsense]. First off, they're allowed to hold them and march through cities where they're not wanted holding signs that [annoy people], all of which means that they still have free speech. Second, there's never been a time in the history of the United States when you could say anything that you wanted with no push-back from your neighbors. What they're actually protesting is that the United States has become more diverse and more socially liberal and they don't like it.

Public speech being condemned by private citizens is a different matter. Yes, if you voice an unpopular or controversial opinion and have the misfortune of being caught on camera it can cost you your job and expose you to ridicule and harassment by people from all over the world. But that's not a First Amendment issue or a liberal conspiracy, it's the result of social media making it possible to communicate instantly with pretty much anyone anywhere. So sure, if you get caught on film going off on a racist tirade then you can wind up trending on Twitter and it can cost you your job and screw up your life. And if you refuse to serve a guy wearing a MAGA hat (in Canada, no less) you can find yourself getting ripped on FOX News while your Yelp rating goes negative and your inbox fills up with hate mail.

Personally, I think the whole thing is pretty screwed up, and it infuriates me that the media (and that includes all of the right-wing outlets) delights in dragging random people into the spotlight and skinning them alive, but here we are. That's reality, so you'll want to think hard before you call the cops on a black guy for wearing socks in a swimming pool, comment on Twitter about how the Jews secretly run the banking industry, or throw your drink on a kid in a MAGA hat. The government still doesn't care, but world is watching.
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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#47

Post by RickD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 am

Ed, that's just not true. Just ask Ben Shapiro, Milo Yianopoulis, etc.

Their free speech is being prohibited in govt funded colleges.
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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#48

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:30 am

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/opin ... k-web.html

Been following these guys for a few years now and I am hoping that it is a trend that will grow and continue.

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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#49

Post by edwardmurphy » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:29 am

RickD wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 am
Ed, that's just not true. Just ask Ben Shapiro, Milo Yianopoulis, etc.

Their free speech is being prohibited in govt funded colleges.
I see it a bit differently, especially when it comes to Yianopoulis. Those guys are right-wing polemicists. They made all kinds of inflammatory statements that offended liberals, then they booked speaking engagements at the most liberal colleges they could find in hopes that there would be a strong reaction. Unfortunately, they got their wish. Undisciplined left-wing kids protested and made a mess of things, and Shapiro, Yianopoulis, and the rest cried their eyes out about leftist persecution, which was their plan all along.

It would be the equivalent of Michelle Wolf or Bill Maher trying to book a gig at one of the many government-funded conservative churches. They probably wouldn't be given the opportunity to speak.

The fact remains, Ben, Milo, and all of their buddies are still saying all of the things that they want to say, so it's disingenuous to say that their free speech has been curtailed, either by the government or by their political opponents. In reality their gambits gained them a larger audience, as they hoped it would.
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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#50

Post by Stu » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:32 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:21 am
Free speech isn't under attack in the United States. That's a right-wing lie. People are still free to say whatever they want, with a few reasonable and long-standing exceptions, without fear of being shut down by the government. Whats more, corporations are now able to use unlimited amounts of money on political speech, and preachers can talk politics from the pulpit while keeping their tax-exempt status. You can even decline to sell a cake to a gay couple on the grounds that selling a cake is speech.

The "free speech" rallies are right-wing [nonsense]. First off, they're allowed to hold them and march through cities where they're not wanted holding signs that [annoy people], all of which means that they still have free speech. Second, there's never been a time in the history of the United States when you could say anything that you wanted with no push-back from your neighbors. What they're actually protesting is that the United States has become more diverse and more socially liberal and they don't like it.

Public speech being condemned by private citizens is a different matter. Yes, if you voice an unpopular or controversial opinion and have the misfortune of being caught on camera it can cost you your job and expose you to ridicule and harassment by people from all over the world. But that's not a First Amendment issue or a liberal conspiracy, it's the result of social media making it possible to communicate instantly with pretty much anyone anywhere. So sure, if you get caught on film going off on a racist tirade then you can wind up trending on Twitter and it can cost you your job and screw up your life. And if you refuse to serve a guy wearing a MAGA hat (in Canada, no less) you can find yourself getting ripped on FOX News while your Yelp rating goes negative and your inbox fills up with hate mail.

Personally, I think the whole thing is pretty screwed up, and it infuriates me that the media (and that includes all of the right-wing outlets) delights in dragging random people into the spotlight and skinning them alive, but here we are. That's reality, so you'll want to think hard before you call the cops on a black guy for wearing socks in a swimming pool, comment on Twitter about how the Jews secretly run the banking industry, or throw your drink on a kid in a MAGA hat. The government still doesn't care, but world is watching.
No offense but what a load of rubbish. No one is protesting diversity. That is just some liberal talking point that has no basis in fact.

Has the country gone more socially liberal, yeah that I would agree with and the right doesn't like that; but then any right-minded person would think the same :wave:

And you are shooting down a strawman. No one said free speech is under immediate threat, what we are saying is that some on the left (in their own words) have decried free speech and so if it were up to them would limit it. Some on the left are completely losing it.

Yet more and more we are seeing the left trying to prevent freedom of speech or just the right to live in peace - think Antifa (harassing any right-leaning group that holds a rally or even a prayer vigil), Maxine Waters (and the politicians that support her), news outlets that continue to demonise the right and call for action, and just liberals in general that are getting more and more intolerant of the right's right to exist (kid wearing the MAGA hat that was harassed, etc.).
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#51

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:07 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:29 am
RickD wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 am
Ed, that's just not true. Just ask Ben Shapiro, Milo Yianopoulis, etc.

Their free speech is being prohibited in govt funded colleges.
I see it a bit differently, especially when it comes to Yianopoulis. Those guys are right-wing polemicists. They made all kinds of inflammatory statements that offended liberals, then they booked speaking engagements at the most liberal colleges they could find in hopes that there would be a strong reaction. Unfortunately, they got their wish. Undisciplined left-wing kids protested and made a mess of things, and Shapiro, Yianopoulis, and the rest cried their eyes out about leftist persecution, which was their plan all along.

It would be the equivalent of Michelle Wolf or Bill Maher trying to book a gig at one of the many government-funded conservative churches. They probably wouldn't be given the opportunity to speak.

The fact remains, Ben, Milo, and all of their buddies are still saying all of the things that they want to say, so it's disingenuous to say that their free speech has been curtailed, either by the government or by their political opponents. In reality their gambits gained them a larger audience, as they hoped it would.
Funny that you mention Bill Maher:
http://thehill.com/homenews/media/33004 ... r-f-babies

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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#52

Post by Stu » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:03 am

Ed, you have to admit that the left is slowly losing it.
Watch the two videos at this link below and tell me you're not embarrassed to be a liberal. The frikken constitution man!

VIDEO: LIBERALS TRIGGERED INTO LITERAL SCREAMING FIT BY MAN READING CONSTITUTION

And with things like this (link below) going on, no wonder there is a movement called #walkaway (walk away from the Democrats). It's disgusting the level the left is sinking to.

LEFTISTS CYBERBULLY WOMAN WHO THANKED ERIC TRUMP FOR CANCER CHARITY DONATION
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#53

Post by B. W. » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:05 am

Stu wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:03 am
Ed, you have to admit that the left is slowly losing it.
Watch the two videos at this link below and tell me you're not embarrassed to be a liberal. The frikken constitution man!

VIDEO: LIBERALS TRIGGERED INTO LITERAL SCREAMING FIT BY MAN READING CONSTITUTION

And with things like this (link below) going on, no wonder there is a movement called #walkaway (walk away from the Democrats). It's disgusting the level the left is sinking to.

LEFTISTS CYBERBULLY WOMAN WHO THANKED ERIC TRUMP FOR CANCER CHARITY DONATION
Stu, - liberals defy reason -
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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#54

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:43 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:21 am
Stu wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:07 am
Yeah it's actually very sad to see this happening in modern day America. That they actually want to tread on, or oppose, freedom of speech is just mind-blowing to me. Can't fathom it. But then I'm a libertarian.

So it's freedom of speech, as long as it coincides with my views. Such a dangerous precedent they are setting.
Free speech isn't under attack in the United States. That's a right-wing lie. People are still free to say whatever they want, with a few reasonable and long-standing exceptions, without fear of being shut down by the government. Whats more, corporations are now able to use unlimited amounts of money on political speech, and preachers can talk politics from the pulpit while keeping their tax-exempt status. You can even decline to sell a cake to a gay couple on the grounds that selling a cake is speech.

The "free speech" rallies are right-wing [nonsense]. First off, they're allowed to hold them and march through cities where they're not wanted holding signs that [annoy people], all of which means that they still have free speech. Second, there's never been a time in the history of the United States when you could say anything that you wanted with no push-back from your neighbors. What they're actually protesting is that the United States has become more diverse and more socially liberal and they don't like it.

Public speech being condemned by private citizens is a different matter. Yes, if you voice an unpopular or controversial opinion and have the misfortune of being caught on camera it can cost you your job and expose you to ridicule and harassment by people from all over the world. But that's not a First Amendment issue or a liberal conspiracy, it's the result of social media making it possible to communicate instantly with pretty much anyone anywhere. So sure, if you get caught on film going off on a racist tirade then you can wind up trending on Twitter and it can cost you your job and screw up your life. And if you refuse to serve a guy wearing a MAGA hat (in Canada, no less) you can find yourself getting ripped on FOX News while your Yelp rating goes negative and your inbox fills up with hate mail.

Personally, I think the whole thing is pretty screwed up, and it infuriates me that the media (and that includes all of the right-wing outlets) delights in dragging random people into the spotlight and skinning them alive, but here we are. That's reality, so you'll want to think hard before you call the cops on a black guy for wearing socks in a swimming pool, comment on Twitter about how the Jews secretly run the banking industry, or throw your drink on a kid in a MAGA hat. The government still doesn't care, but world is watching.
For you.
https://youtu.be/wnnBEr-7-Rk
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2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#55

Post by edwardmurphy » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:13 pm

Stu wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:03 am
Ed, you have to admit that the left is slowly losing it.
Watch the two videos at this link below and tell me you're not embarrassed to be a liberal. The frikken constitution man!
No, Stu, I'm not embarrassed to be a liberal. Why would I be? What does some guy at a Whataburger in Texas have to do with me? There is no such thing as a unified liberal tribe where we all share the same beliefs about everything and are responsible for each others' actions. That's just more [nonsense] punditry, dumbing it down for people who don't like complexity and nuance.

Literally every single thing that I've ever heard B.W. or Abe say about liberals has been a lie, an exaggeration, or a mischaracterization made either deliberately due to malice or unknowingly due to ignorance. Every. Single. Thing.

I've known a great many liberals in my lifetime, and I've never met a single person who...

- favors open borders
- wants a Stalinist/Leninist/Maoist/Communist/Nazi regime in the United States
- wants to take away all the guns
- thinks that abortion is no big deal or that it's an appropriate alternative to birth control
- wants America to fail
- is opposed to free market capitalism
- wants to repeal the 1st or 2nd Amendments
- thinks conservatives are the enemy or that conservatives want to destroy America
- is just looking for a handout
- hates men
- hates White people
- hates America
- throws drinks in the faces of kids in cheap, Chinese hats at 2 am in some fast food place

Personally, I hold none of those positions. If you want to know what I actually believe, rather than the lies others tell about me, go ahead and ask. And then listen. I'm perfectly willing to have a reasonable, civil conversation with anyone who's not telling ridiculous lies about me.

Does that mean that there aren't liberals out there who believe some or all of those things? Of course not. There are tens of millions of liberals, and a few of them are complete crackpots. So what? The same thing can be said of any large group. Give me 15 minutes and an Internet connection and, using the methods you've all been using against liberals, I'll prove to you that Jews, Christians, men, women, conservatives, clergy, poor people, rich people, White, Black, and Asian people, people who drive Fords, people who like pizza, Mets fans, dog owners, and any other group with more than a couple of hundred members is also comprised entirely of lunatics that want to destroy America. So [love] what...? All it proves is that these days everybody has a camera.

The thing that I find most frustrating about you guys is the complete lack of introspection and self-awareness. You tell me liberals are blah, blah, whatever, so I provide you with examples of conservatives doing exactly the same thing, and the response, every single time, is to pretend it never happened. You can spot a crazy liberal from a mile away, but somehow the equally crazy conservative sitting right next to you is invisible. It's astonishing. Your tribe is without fault, and when the fault is so obvious that it can't be denied, why, that guy was never a real member of your tribe anyway, plus what about Crooked Hillary...?

What a bunch of [nonsense]...
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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#56

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:21 am

Actually Ed, I think that confirmation bias is very real and BOTH sides suffer from it bigtime.

That said, I also think that the line that distinguishes the far -right from the majority of conservatives is very well drawn ( white supremacists, racists, Nazi'z, etc) and the vast majority of conservatives openly critique them BUT I don't think that is the case with the left and the far-left.

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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#57

Post by edwardmurphy » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:39 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:21 am
Actually Ed, I think that confirmation bias is very real and BOTH sides suffer from it big time.
Fair point, Paul. You're one of the reasonable ones. I read the article about the IDW, BTW, and found it interesting. And regarding Bill Maher, I generally agree with his position on the protests at Berkeley, although I don't much care for him. Berkeley was frustrating because the kids, being young, idealistic, uncompromising, and straight forward, didn't realize that they were being trolled. They should hace ignored Ann, Milo, and whoever, but instead they went bonkers and played right into their hands. Oh well...
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:21 am
That said, I also think that the line that distinguishes the far -right from the majority of conservatives is very well drawn ( white supremacists, racists, Nazi'z, etc) and the vast majority of conservatives openly critique them BUT I don't think that is the case with the left and the far-left.
Here I have to push back. I think there's a huge divide between, say, a PETA or Antifa member and a typical liberal. I think that both of those groups make a few good points, but I also find them stupid, destructive, and distracting. Antifa is only a few hundred loosely organized hotheads - they have no power, influence, or popular support - but their behavior plays perfectly into the right wing punditry's narrative. Suddenly they're being portrayed as typical liberals. It's insane that I'm being compared with those guys, or that some people expect me to justify their behavior.

Regarding the conservative side of things, I don't think that the line is as distinct as you make it out to be. When tens of thousands of Trump supporters are chanting "Lock her up" - despite the fact that Clinton has been endlessly investigated and never charged with a thing - it starts to look like the Republican base is drifting away from conservative principles and starting to morph into totalitarian populism. I don't think that the line between the rank-and-file GOP and the "blood and soil" nationalists is nearly as clear as it was two years ago. I think that the blurring of that line can be traced directly to Donald Trump and his America First platform. And frankly, it's alarming.
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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#58

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:45 pm

RickD wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 am
Ed, that's just not true. Just ask Ben Shapiro, Milo Yianopoulis, etc.

Their free speech is being prohibited in govt funded colleges.
Yes, when you said Milo it reminded me of the anti male crap that my generation is waking up to.
Like for instance the "Homer Simpson dad" thing we see so much. The no fault divorce. "Always a man's fault". Etc etc.

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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#59

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:26 am

Here I have to push back. I think there's a huge divide between, say, a PETA or Antifa member and a typical liberal. I think that both of those groups make a few good points, but I also find them stupid, destructive, and distracting. Antifa is only a few hundred loosely organized hotheads - they have no power, influence, or popular support - but their behavior plays perfectly into the right wing punditry's narrative. Suddenly they're being portrayed as typical liberals. It's insane that I'm being compared with those guys, or that some people expect me to justify their behavior.

Agreed BUT I don't think that divide as as clear as it should be and I would like to see more liberals take a stand against them.

Regarding the conservative side of things, I don't think that the line is as distinct as you make it out to be. When tens of thousands of Trump supporters are chanting "Lock her up" - despite the fact that Clinton has been endlessly investigated and never charged with a thing - it starts to look like the Republican base is drifting away from conservative principles and starting to morph into totalitarian populism. I don't think that the line between the rank-and-file GOP and the "blood and soil" nationalists is nearly as clear as it was two years ago. I think that the blurring of that line can be traced directly to Donald Trump and his America First platform. And frankly, it's alarming.
Hmmm, I think that when people think "conservative" they don't think KKK or white supremacist ( they probably think uptight white man in a suit, also a very incorrect stereotype).
I think the divide between Far right and conservative is much clearer than between Liberal and Far-left.

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Re: Have we crossed the line yet?

#60

Post by melanie » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:52 am

I agree with ED, pretty much on every topic brought up in this tread. I’m actually really glad he’s here and has stuck around. Regardless of religious beliefs, a clear, intelligent response needs to be acknowledged.
As a vegan I’m a little shocked that PETA has been brought up in the same discussion as Antifa. Actually when you look at Antifa and they’re actions and beliefs I’m even more shocked that someone like Milo Yiannopoulos and his beliefs who is as an antagonist and a supporter of far right extremists would even be in the same discussion as PETA.
PETA is NOT a political movement.
I’m not the biggest supporter of PETA and have recently stopped financially supporting them because of some obvious cracks in the their agenda.
But to even suggest that they are a far wing political party or even remotely equivalent is BS

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