Arguements Against Classical Theism or Deism?

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DBowling
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Sources for Caesar and Jesus Compared

#16

Post by DBowling » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:56 am

Here is a link that is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Sources for Caesar and Jesus Compared
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... -compared/

Some quotes from the article
What about the manuscripts? Here the New Testament is far superior to its classical companions. Our earliest manuscripts start appearing within decades of the writing. The fragment p52 is dated around AD 125. It only has a few portions of John 18, but it starts a trail that has full manuscripts of the Gospels appearing by the fourth century. The number of Greek manuscripts we have of the New Testament up to the time of the printing press is more than 5,800.
...
So where does this leave us? It forces us to accept the presentation of Jesus in the Gospels as part of the ancient story. It shows us Christ’s story is just as well attested as Caesar’s. You can accept or deny claims made about Jesus in the Gospels, but you can’t pretend they were never made. If the sources for Caesar are good enough for classicists to study and accept, then we should also seriously assess the core descriptions of Jesus’s life from the sources closest to him.

If we believe what the best sources say about Julius Caesar, then we should believe what the best sources say about Jesus Christ.

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Re: Arguements Against Classical Theism or Deism?

#17

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:21 am

Seraph wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:25 pm
Alexander and Julius Caesar were conquerors with an impact that spanned across Europe, there are coins minted and found in different countries with each of their faces on them, and many accounts of soldiers who participated in the wars they started. Theres abundant evidence in favour of both of those figures, much more so than the amount of evidence that the gospels provide for Jesus. Even though historians generally agree that Jesus that human figure existed, it is definitely not true that historians on the whole agree that the events recorded in the gospels are all completely factual.

.
You need to check your stuff.
Or the links that DB posted.

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Re: Arguements Against Classical Theism or Deism?

#18

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:25 am

Jesus, as a historical figure, was simply a crucified fisherman / preacher, and yet had such attestations and was noted / marked the world, as much as, if not MORE so, than Kings and emperors of world dominating empires.
Think about that.
A lowly peasant so marked the world and history that ALL know Him and that even the modern counting of time is based on when He existed.

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Re: Arguements Against Classical Theism or Deism?

#19

Post by Seraph » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:18 pm

Think about it? Its a flat out lie. Seriously.
I am committed to belief in God, as the most morally demanding, psychologically enriching, intellectually satisfying and imaginatively fruitful hypothesis about the ultimate nature of reality known to me - Keith Ward

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Re: Arguements Against Classical Theism or Deism?

#20

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:42 pm

Seraph wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:14 pm
Hello All,

Been awhile since Ive posted here (Over 5 years in fact), just thought Id check back in out of curiosity. These days Id describe myself as an agnostic classical theist/deist or possibly panentheist. One question I pose to Christians nowadays is: what arguments are there in favour of the Christian God specifically? A lot of the debate seems to revolve around the existence of God in general but supposing there is an existing God, what evidence is there on scientific or philosophical grounds which points specifically to the God described by the Bible? To me it seems that even if a creator entity is shown to exist, there is still a very long way to go from that point to a personal God, especially one with all of the qualities and characteristics described by Christianity. So ultimately I'm wondering, supposing a God exists, what is the reasoning that it cannot be a vauge general non-specific God like one described by classical theists or deists? Many philosophers (Like Aristotle and Spinoza) throughout history reasoned that a Prime Mover or Uncaused Cause exist, but they didn't reason that this entity is a being which performs miracles, answers prayers, or prescribes laws and salvation/damnation.
I would answer it this way.The evidence of a God and/or Creator has always been about just evidence for a God,once it is established that there is a God that created the universe and everything in it then it can be debated in a religious context which God is the true God.Based on the law of non-contradiction only one of the Gods people believe in can be the true God because they all contradict,so we can know that there is only one God that is the true God as we get started determining which is the true God.You may not realize it it but Christians not only defeat atheists in debate defending our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ but also people of other religions who believe in other gods or a god.
Last edited by abelcainsbrother on Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Arguements Against Classical Theism or Deism?

#21

Post by DBowling » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:42 pm

Seraph wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:18 pm
Think about it? Its a flat out lie. Seriously.

Thought about it...
Lots of times...
Over lots of years...

I'm very confident that both of us have been exposed to any number of "flat out lies"... seriously!
However your statement is a tad vague on what you are referring to as a "flat out lie".

Let's see if we can figure out what the real lie here is...

How would you characterize the following statement?
"Jesus' earliest followers had experiences that they thought were the risen Jesus."
Do you believe that statement is:
a. a "flat out lie"
b. an established historical fact

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Re: Arguements Against Classical Theism or Deism?

#22

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:13 pm

Seraph wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:18 pm
Think about it? Its a flat out lie. Seriously.
If you have some other god on your mind then present the evidence for that god,otherwise you just doubting Jesus based on no evidence but just feelings will not really work like you think.You've presented some things you seem to find problematic when it comes to the bible but not for any other god,religious holy book,etc,eventhough you brought up other gods we might should consider.

So you make the case for why we should consider some other god over Jesus Christ.I mean you're the one who brought up other gods to consider and yet I don't think you have even really seriously compared other gods and religious holy books to Jesus and the bible,because if you did and were honest you'd probably choose Jesus too.Especially since he is the only God that did anything about man's sin and willingly laid his life down to save sinners and he made salvation so easy and offers the best afterlife of any other god or religion out there too.As there is no way I could even come close to choosing Islam heaven or reincarnation over the afterlife Jesus offers.Jesus blows them all away just based on the afterlife he offers alone compared to what they offer.But if I have overlooked something then make the case for some other god I should consider over Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

abelcainsbrother
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Re: Arguements Against Classical Theism or Deism?

#23

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:22 pm

John Saw.For you Seraph
https://youtu.be/HSQQDZL4Oqo
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Arguements Against Classical Theism or Deism?

#24

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:40 am

Seraph wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:18 pm
Think about it? Its a flat out lie. Seriously.
It is a flat out lie that Jesus marked the modern era ??
That even though he was a simple peasant, he is more renown now and had more written about him than kings and emperors ??
You serious ?

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