Ah, so much back and forth over whether there is a covenant that is permanent that the Lord gives that even He (supposedly) can no rescind. But as for the Sabbath - what about BEFORE that law was ever given - because, for a very long time, it didn't exist for man, and later, when Israel was born a nation, it did. And later, Christians were no longer under The Law.Rick: And, is this where you're going with Christ having the authority to make a new covenant, and he also had the authority to make the old covenant obsolete?
God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Philip,Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 4:53 pmAh, so much back and forth over whether there is a covenant that is permanent that the Lord gives that even He (supposedly) can no rescind. But as for the Sabbath - what about BEFORE that law was ever given - because, for a very long time, it didn't exist for man, and later, when Israel was born a nation, it did. And later, Christians were no longer under The Law.Rick: And, is this where you're going with Christ having the authority to make a new covenant, and he also had the authority to make the old covenant obsolete?
If the sabbath law was instituted at creation, wouldn't there be an unbroken succession of God's covenant people observing the sabbath before it was written as part of mosaic law? Like biblical proof that Adam, Noah, and Abraham, were observing the sabbath?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
I'll have to think on that one.Rick: Philip,
If the sabbath law was instituted at creation, wouldn't there be an unbroken succession of God's covenant people observing the sabbath before it was written as part of mosaic law? Like biblical proof that Adam, Noah, and Abraham, were observing the sabbath?
But people need to distinguish between laws given for a particular purpose and period of time, and in those that are absolutes for ALL time - like laws against murder, rape, etc. Of course, ALL of God's pronouncements emanate from His Holy character, but there are important nuances as to how those play out. A law that God's purpose for has been fulfilled, He sometimes removes. Others He has an eternal purpose for making. It's the failure to see the difference where this argument breaks down into camps of belief.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
What about when God flooded the place and killed everyone. That was kind of a hard-reset for humanity. Was God going against his own Holy character ? Arguing that's a form of 'tough love' is stretchin' it a bit. Even 'wrathful' is putting mildly.Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 5:35 pmI'll have to think on that one.Rick: Philip,
If the sabbath law was instituted at creation, wouldn't there be an unbroken succession of God's covenant people observing the sabbath before it was written as part of mosaic law? Like biblical proof that Adam, Noah, and Abraham, were observing the sabbath?
But people need to distinguish between laws given for a particular purpose and period of time, and in those that are absolutes for ALL time - like laws against murder, rape, etc. Of course, ALL of God's pronouncements emanate from His Holy character, but there are important nuances as to how those play out. A law that God's purpose for has been fulfilled, He sometimes removes. Others He has an eternal purpose for making. It's the failure to see the difference where this argument breaks down into camps of belief.
BTW, that reminds me of a church slogan I once saw...."Noah was a brave man to get on a boat with 2 termites"

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- BavarianWheels
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Laws are fulfilled DAILY by many people in society. I fulfill the STOP sign law daily and multiple times. That fulfillment doesn't absolve me from stopping at a STOP sign tomorrow. I'm sure you fulfill the law daily too. That doesn't mean that the law is done away with tomorrow.Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 5:35 pmI'll have to think on that one.Rick: Philip,
If the sabbath law was instituted at creation, wouldn't there be an unbroken succession of God's covenant people observing the sabbath before it was written as part of mosaic law? Like biblical proof that Adam, Noah, and Abraham, were observing the sabbath?
But people need to distinguish between laws given for a particular purpose and period of time, and in those that are absolutes for ALL time - like laws against murder, rape, etc. Of course, ALL of God's pronouncements emanate from His Holy character, but there are important nuances as to how those play out. A law that God's purpose for has been fulfilled, He sometimes removes. Others He has an eternal purpose for making. It's the failure to see the difference where this argument breaks down into camps of belief.
The Sabbath law does serve a purpose and a period of time...it is every Sabbath and for the purpose of celebrating that God is Creator...that period of time never ends. God is and will always be Creator.
Christ fulfilling the law means He was not under the curse of the law, not that the law ended...as you even prove by repeating murder above...though He willfully BECAME a curse for us, not in that He sinned, but that He willfully took on the curse of the law.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
So Jesus paid the price for breaking the sabbath law too and thus Col 2:16 is indeed trueBavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 7:56 amChrist fulfilling the law means He was not under the curse of the law, not that the law ended...as you even prove by repeating murder above...though He willfully BECAME a curse for us, not in that He sinned, but that He willfully took on the curse of the law.
Col 2:16, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths..." NKJV
Amen!
Great point Bav!
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
The context of Colossians 2:16 is not on the Sabbath of the 10, but of the sabbaths of new moons, festival sabbaths.B. W. wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:11 amSo Jesus paid the price for breaking the sabbath law too and thus Col 2:16 is indeed trueBavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 7:56 amChrist fulfilling the law means He was not under the curse of the law, not that the law ended...as you even prove by repeating murder above...though He willfully BECAME a curse for us, not in that He sinned, but that He willfully took on the curse of the law.
Col 2:16, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths..." NKJV
Amen!
Great point Bav!
There is no law about food or drink in the Decalogue. So while it is correct that no one should judge anyone on food or drink or sabbaths, it is not speaking about the Sabbath made holy at creation.
Clearly the law Paul speaks about in Romans 3:20, is a specific Law which was specifically handed down from God to His people...and if we are Christians to be grafted into the Vine...that Vine being of Jewish/Hebrew decent, it is not a matter of something being handed to only Jews and not to Christians...
And again, payment for breaking of a law is not being absolved in continuing to keep the law. Just because I pay the penalty for speeding, does not absolve me from ever having to keep from speeding again!
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- warren631 (Thu May 24, 2018 8:31 am)
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
In Matthew 5:17 Jesus reportedly said:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.…"
Isn't that plain enough?
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.…"
Isn't that plain enough?
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
You highlighted and underlined the wrong sentence. Fixed that for ya.warren631 wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:43 amIn Matthew 5:17 Jesus reportedly said:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.…"
Isn't that plain enough?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
So then now show where it is that those jots and strokes are plainly laid out in the same manner that God handed the jots and strokes at Sinai.Byblos wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:52 amYou highlighted and underlined the wrong sentence. Fixed that for ya.warren631 wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:43 amIn Matthew 5:17 Jesus reportedly said:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.…"
Isn't that plain enough?
Hint: It doesn't exist.
One more hint: Did God use a pen and paper to hand off the Decalogue? Was it a scroll God handed Moses? A book?
So then AGAIN, the context is completely different to what you allege it to be. It's the CEREMONIAL laws that are changed/removed when everything is accomplished. Food, drinks, new moons, festivals, sabbaths...etc. These are laws of the ceremonial law, not the Decalogue. The ceremonial laws were the shadow of things to come...Christ's blood was shadowed by the blood of animals, the skins of animals that covered Adam and Eve were a shadow of Christ's blood that covers our sin...the food, the drink...these were all shadows of the Bread of Life, Christ's own body, of the Blood that Jesus said we must all drink...etc.
Everything in the Temple and everything that had to do with the Temple was a shadow of the reality in Christ...all accomplished THROUGH Jesus' redemptive work and NAILED to the cross.
So...do we then nullify God's Law? No...because that is a different law...IT points at sin, NOT Christ's redemptive work.
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Last edited by BavarianWheels on Thu May 24, 2018 9:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
To state that is to go beyond legalism and deny what Christ did indeed accomplish (and that's coming from a Catholic for goodness sake).BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:54 amSo then now show where it is that those jots and strokes are plainly laid out in the same manner that God handed the jots and strokes at Sinai.Byblos wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:52 amYou highlighted and underlined the wrong sentence. Fixed that for ya.warren631 wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:43 amIn Matthew 5:17 Jesus reportedly said:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.…"
Isn't that plain enough?
Hint: It doesn't exist.
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Of course, I'm not saying you're denying what Christ accomplished but, based on what you said, the same argument can be made for it.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
- BavarianWheels
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
See my edits to that post.Byblos wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 9:03 amTo state that is to go beyond legalism and deny what Christ did indeed accomplish (and that's coming from a Catholic for goodness sake).BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:54 amSo then now show where it is that those jots and strokes are plainly laid out in the same manner that God handed the jots and strokes at Sinai.Byblos wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:52 amYou highlighted and underlined the wrong sentence. Fixed that for ya.warren631 wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:43 amIn Matthew 5:17 Jesus reportedly said:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.…"
Isn't that plain enough?
Hint: It doesn't exist.
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Of course, I'm not saying you're denying what Christ accomplished but, based on what you said, the same argument can be made for it.
I don't deny that Christ accomplished something, I deny Christ accomplished abolishing His own law. I don't promote legalism any more than Christ promoted legalism to the woman caught in adultery in saying, "Go and sin no more" AFTER having told her He didn't accuse her either! ( See John 8:1-11 )
Don't you see the parallelism of Christ taking on the curse of the law and Paul saying the law points to sin and that we, if we live according to the Spirit should then do as the Spirit does. Does the Spirit sin? Then the Spirit acts according to God's law. "I don't condemn you, so go and sin no more." paraphrased.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
What the hell are you talking about bav? no one is encouraged to sin just because they are in Christ and under the law no more. You are spewing nonsense all over the place.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
- BavarianWheels
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Exactly. No one is encouraged to sin...and so how do we know what sin is?
Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7
20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Being in Christ does not therefore excuse blatant breaking of the Law, but assures the believer that EVEN THOUGH he/she IS a sinner, that the sinner is declared righteous ( the law's curse not found on us ) THROUGH Christ's righteousness!.7What then shall we say? Is the Law sin? By no means! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the Law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the Law had not said, “Do not covet.”
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
So, what I am hearing you say is this, that Jesus atoned for all sins except breaking the Saturday sabbath?BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:22 amThe context of Colossians 2:16 is not on the Sabbath of the 10, but of the sabbaths of new moons, festival sabbaths.B. W. wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:11 amSo Jesus paid the price for breaking the sabbath law too and thus Col 2:16 is indeed trueBavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 7:56 amChrist fulfilling the law means He was not under the curse of the law, not that the law ended...as you even prove by repeating murder above...though He willfully BECAME a curse for us, not in that He sinned, but that He willfully took on the curse of the law.
Col 2:16, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths..." NKJV
Amen!
Great point Bav!
There is no law about food or drink in the Decalogue. So while it is correct that no one should judge anyone on food or drink or sabbaths, it is not speaking about the Sabbath made holy at creation.
Clearly the law Paul speaks about in Romans 3:20, is a specific Law which was specifically handed down from God to His people...and if we are Christians to be grafted into the Vine...that Vine being of Jewish/Hebrew decent, it is not a matter of something being handed to only Jews and not to Christians...
And again, payment for breaking of a law is not being absolved in continuing to keep the law. Just because I pay the penalty for speeding, does not absolve me from ever having to keep from speeding again!
Wouldn't that mean, then, that his sacrifice was not a sufficient sacrifice for all sins?
-
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys