Page 23 of 23

Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:08 am
by RickD
DBowling wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:55 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 am
Where does Paul say that observing the sabbath is denying Christ?
Paul worships on the Sabbath
Acts 18:1-4

Paul worships on the First Day of the Week
Acts 20:7
I'm not sure who this is for. I'm not arguing against worshipping on any specific day of the week. I'm specifically talking about observing the OT sabbath laws.

Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:29 am
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:06 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:38 pm
PaulS wrote:
Yes, of course, BUT Paul doesn't say NOT to observe the Sabbath, as in Romans, Paul states that it is up to the individual to decide WHY they choose to observe ( or not) on day above another.
As long as they are doing it FOR GOD either way.
But paul does say not to observe the sabbath.
Colossians 2:16-17
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Paul was speaking of the false teachers who were judging the Colossians, because the false teachers wanted the Colossians to live as Jews, obeying the OT law.

In verse 17, Paul says that those things listed in verse 16, including the sabbath, are a mere shadow of what is to come. And the substance belongs to Christ.

Again, Paul specifically calls the Sabbath, a shadow of Christ. Which isn't binding, since Christ has come. The shadow pointed to Christ. If anyone observes the shadow, he is denying that Christ is come.
Where does Paul say that observing the sabbath is denying Christ?
I don't know if he says it or doesn't say it. I wasn't claiming that he did say it.
Sorry, I misunderstood.

IMO, wether a person choose to observe the sabbath ( or ANY special day) or NOT is up to the indovidual AS LONG as his/her decisions is base don faith in Christ and are doing it FOR Christ.
And I think that Paul's writings echos this.

Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:44 am
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:29 am
RickD wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:06 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:38 pm
PaulS wrote:
Yes, of course, BUT Paul doesn't say NOT to observe the Sabbath, as in Romans, Paul states that it is up to the individual to decide WHY they choose to observe ( or not) on day above another.
As long as they are doing it FOR GOD either way.
But paul does say not to observe the sabbath.
Colossians 2:16-17
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Paul was speaking of the false teachers who were judging the Colossians, because the false teachers wanted the Colossians to live as Jews, obeying the OT law.

In verse 17, Paul says that those things listed in verse 16, including the sabbath, are a mere shadow of what is to come. And the substance belongs to Christ.

Again, Paul specifically calls the Sabbath, a shadow of Christ. Which isn't binding, since Christ has come. The shadow pointed to Christ. If anyone observes the shadow, he is denying that Christ is come.
Where does Paul say that observing the sabbath is denying Christ?
I don't know if he says it or doesn't say it. I wasn't claiming that he did say it.
Sorry, I misunderstood.

IMO, wether a person choose to observe the sabbath ( or ANY special day) or NOT is up to the indovidual AS LONG as his/her decisions is base don faith in Christ and are doing it FOR Christ.
And I think that Paul's writings echos this.
And I'm saying that goes completely against Paul's writings, which say that believers should not follow OT law, which includes observing the sabbath. Paul seems pretty clear that we are under grace, and not under the law.

Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:12 pm
by DBowling
Some thoughts...

Let me use "Do not murder" as an example...
Is the law "Do not murder" applicable to Christians today?
The answer is a resounding yes

Is the law "Do not murder" applicable because it is one of the 10 Commandments?
The answer is no.
As Rick points out the Old Covenant (including the 10 Commandments) has become 'obsolete' and has been replaced by the New Covenant.

So why is the law "Do not murder" still applicable?
Because it is part of God's 'moral law' that transcends the Old Covenant.
"Do not murder" was applicable before the Old Covenant, it was part of the Old Covenant, and it is now part of the law written on our hearts under the New Covenant.

Is keeping the law "Do not murder" that is written on our hearts under the New Covenant in any way meritorious?
The answer is no.
We are saved by grace through faith, not by works.
So under the New Covenant we don't have to memorize a bunch of laws and worry about whether we are good enough for God.
We need to accept God's grace and then...
Love God and love each other.

If I have a heart attitude of "love for God" and "love for each other" then I won't even have the heart attitude of hatred that leads to murder.
As a follower of Jesus, Jesus wants my focus to be on my heart attitudes (Mat 5)

That is the foundation of all of God's moral law
Before the Old Covenant
During the Old Covenant
And now under the New Covenant.

Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:47 pm
by RickD
DBowling wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:12 pm
Some thoughts...

Let me use "Do not murder" as an example...
Is the law "Do not murder" applicable to Christians today?
The answer is a resounding yes


Is the law "Do not murder" applicable because it is one of the 10 Commandments?
The answer is no.
As Rick points out the Old Covenant (including the 10 Commandments) has become 'obsolete' and has been replaced by the New Covenant.

So why is the law "Do not murder" still applicable?
Because it is part of God's 'moral law' that transcends the Old Covenant.
"Do not murder" was applicable before the Old Covenant, it was part of the Old Covenant, and it is now part of the law written on our hearts under the New Covenant.

Is keeping the law "Do not murder" that is written on our hearts under the New Covenant in any way meritorious?
The answer is no.
We are saved by grace through faith, not by works.
So under the New Covenant we don't have to memorize a bunch of laws and worry about whether we are good enough for God.
We need to accept God's grace and then...
Love God and love each other.

If I have a heart attitude of "love for God" and "love for each other" then I won't even have the heart attitude of hatred that leads to murder.
As a follower of Jesus, Jesus wants my focus to be on my heart attitudes (Mat 5)

That is the foundation of all of God's moral law
Before the Old Covenant
During the Old Covenant
And now under the New Covenant.
With the exception of the part I crossed out in your post, I completely agree. And the only reason I disagree with the part I crossed out, is because the new law, "Love God, and love your neighbor", has made the law, "thou shalt not murder" obsolete. That doesn't meant that it's ok to murder now. Murder is and has always been wrong, even before OT law.

I hope that clears up what I'm trying to say.