
God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Jesus said “If ye love me keep my commandments” (John 14:15). After all this heated discussion I will answer my own question with a definite YES! If I fail then Jesus will forgive me if I have faith and love Him. Anyway, keeping Saturday holy and not murdering anyone will not be too onerous for me. 

- BavarianWheels
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
I noticed you don't deal with what I write/say, but with what you think I wrote/said.neo-x wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:12 amYeah, grace is a totally irrational thing. It never makes sense.BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:00 amneo-x wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 10:58 amThere you proved my point. The reason we don't need to follow the law is because we can simply love. But love is the fulfillment of law, obeying the law isn't love. For you can obey the law in fear of punishment without actually changing. But love goes beyond the law. And does what sadly law can never do. I don't murder, not because I need to follow the law but because being in Christ makes me a new person. That love is what makes law obsolete for as Paul himself argues that law is after all lawless people.You're completely wrong again.BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 10:49 amCommandments 1-4 = How to love God
Commandments 5-10 - How to love your neighbor.
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Fwiw, When I first joined this forum I held the identical position as yours. Not only on the law but also on understanding eternal life.
So you are saying that paul is wrong when he says the law is for lawless people?
What does the law have to do with grace? The law doesn't afford grace. The law exists for one purpose and one only...to point to sin. Therefore if you do not act according to the law, then you're probably not living in the Spirit, but in the flesh.
The law is for ALL people, including Christ Himself in that the law had no curse to blame Him for. Therefore if the law has no claim on Christ, He is righteous. The law is holy, righteous and good!
I don't see how anyone acknowledging the NT could think the Law is bad if it's clear it is holy, it is righteous and it is good!
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Do you keep all of Saturday holy?warren631 wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:50 amJesus said “If ye love me keep my commandments” (John 14:15). After all this heated discussion I will answer my own question with a definite YES! If I fail then Jesus will forgive me if I have faith and love Him. Anyway, keeping Saturday holy and not murdering anyone will not be too onerous for me.![]()
Do you keep any or all of another day holy?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
The law pointed to sin. But the law, along with the entire OT, points to Christ. The 10 commandments point to sin, which points to our need for a redeemer.BavarianWheels wrote:
What does the law have to do with grace? The law doesn't afford grace. The law exists for one purpose and one only...to point to sin.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
- BavarianWheels
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
As warren mentioned, the NT claims that Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commands." ( John 14:15 ) Is Jesus not the God of the OT? Is Jesus not the God that created the earth and cosmos? ( John 1:1-3 )RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:31 amBav,
I know you have said multiple times, that observing the sabbath is not a requirement for salvation. In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?
“Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments.”
From “Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-Day Adventists” (1980), 18, cited in Seventh-day Adventists Believe…, 232.
Christ is asked which is the greatest commandment in the law, to which his answer is LOVE. "All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments. ( Matthew 22:34-40 Galatians 5:14 )
The 10 Commandments can easily be split into two Commands:
Love God - Commands 1-4
Love your neighbor - Commands 5-10
These two can then be summed into one word: LOVE
The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 12:28 pmThe law pointed to sin. But the law, along with the entire OT, points to Christ. The 10 commandments point to sin, which points to our need for a redeemer.BavarianWheels wrote:
What does the law have to do with grace? The law doesn't afford grace. The law exists for one purpose and one only...to point to sin.
The only law that points to Christ is the ceremonial laws of the TEMPLE which the shedding of animal blood pointed to the ultimate shedding of the Lamb of God...Christ. He is the mediator of that covenant which was "new" ONLY on the fact that animal blood does not save. Only Christ's blood saves. ( Matthew 26:28 Luke 22:20 )
The OT, I will agree, points to a coming Messiah...and we know Him to be Jesus Christ.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Bav,
Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
1)The entire OT points to Christ, the Redeemer.
2) The 10 commandments are part of the OT
3) Therefore, the 10 commandments point to Christ, the Redeemer.
Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
--------------------------------In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?
BavarianWheels wrote:
The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.
Bav, you can't both agree and disagree at the same time.The OT, I will agree, points to a coming Messiah...and we know Him to be Jesus Christ.
1)The entire OT points to Christ, the Redeemer.
2) The 10 commandments are part of the OT
3) Therefore, the 10 commandments point to Christ, the Redeemer.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
- BavarianWheels
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Are you suggesting that love is not a fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22,23 It's the first one, for crying out loud.
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Oh? Leviticus 18:11-17 is part of the OT. Does this specifically point to Christ the Redeemer?
No, but on the whole, the OT speaks of a coming Messiah. It is the central theme/message.
So yes, it is possible to agree and disagree at the same time on this matter.
Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
.BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:02 pmThe Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Of course it does!BavarianWheels wrote:
Oh? Leviticus 18:11-17 is part of the OT. Does this specifically point to Christ the Redeemer?
The law is for the lawbreaker. The rules point to a need for rules, because people are sinners. And what do sinners need? Redemption. Redemption through Christ.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
- BavarianWheels
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
It doesn't...it doesn't even mention a Messiah, much less redemption and/or Christ. You're using confirmation bias to make that leap.RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:47 pmOf course it does!BavarianWheels wrote:
Oh? Leviticus 18:11-17 is part of the OT. Does this specifically point to Christ the Redeemer?
The law is for the lawbreaker. The rules point to a need for rules, because people are sinners. And what do sinners need? Redemption. Redemption through Christ.
.
.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:14 pm
Bav,
Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?
BavarianWheels wrote:
Are you suggesting that love is not a fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22,23 It's the first one, for crying out loud.
--------------------------------
Why can't you answer my question? Is sabbath observance, fruit that is shown by one who is saved?
The law pointed to sin.
Sin points to the need for a redeemer.
The redeemer is Christ.
Therefore, the law pointed to Christ
Bav,
Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?
BavarianWheels wrote:
Are you suggesting that love is not a fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22,23 It's the first one, for crying out loud.
--------------------------------
Why can't you answer my question? Is sabbath observance, fruit that is shown by one who is saved?
I did answer. I told you that the law points to sin. And sin shows that we need a redeemer. The law doesn't point to sin, just to point to sin! The law didn't point out sin just to show that people are worthless sinners with no hope.BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:02 pm
The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.
The law pointed to sin.
Sin points to the need for a redeemer.
The redeemer is Christ.
Therefore, the law pointed to Christ
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Confirmation bias? Come on Bav. What is the purpose of the OT?BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:54 pmIt doesn't...it doesn't even mention a Messiah, much less redemption and/or Christ. You're using confirmation bias to make that leap.RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:47 pmOf course it does!BavarianWheels wrote:
Oh? Leviticus 18:11-17 is part of the OT. Does this specifically point to Christ the Redeemer?
The law is for the lawbreaker. The rules point to a need for rules, because people are sinners. And what do sinners need? Redemption. Redemption through Christ.
.
.
Seriously Bav, this is Christianity 101. This is basic theology.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
- BavarianWheels
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
You tell me...if the commandments are fulfilled in love and love is the fruit of the Spirit...then...as the texts I point to that said the Law is fulfilled in Love and Galatians lists love as a fruit of the Spirit.RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pmRickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:14 pm
Bav,
Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?
BavarianWheels wrote:
Are you suggesting that love is not a fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22,23 It's the first one, for crying out loud.
--------------------------------
Why can't you answer my question? Is sabbath observance, fruit that is shown by one who is saved?
Again, you're not showing me where in the Decalogue it points to Christ, the redeemer.RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pmI did answer. I told you that the law points to sin. And sin shows that we need a redeemer. The law doesn't point to sin, just to point to sin! The law didn't point out sin just to show that people are worthless sinners with no hope.BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:02 pm
The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.
The law pointed to sin.
Sin points to the need for a redeemer.
The redeemer is Christ.
Therefore, the law pointed to Christ
You're offering confirmation bias as to "show" me...that's not showing me.
.
.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
And this is why people don't want to have a conversation with you.BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 2:01 pmYou tell me...if the commandments are fulfilled in love and love is the fruit of the Spirit...then...as the texts I point to that said the Law is fulfilled in Love and Galatians lists love as a fruit of the Spirit.RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pmRickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:14 pm
Bav,
Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?
BavarianWheels wrote:
Are you suggesting that love is not a fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22,23 It's the first one, for crying out loud.
--------------------------------
Why can't you answer my question? Is sabbath observance, fruit that is shown by one who is saved?
Again, you're not showing me where in the Decalogue it points to Christ, the redeemer.RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pmI did answer. I told you that the law points to sin. And sin shows that we need a redeemer. The law doesn't point to sin, just to point to sin! The law didn't point out sin just to show that people are worthless sinners with no hope.BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:02 pm
The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.
The law pointed to sin.
Sin points to the need for a redeemer.
The redeemer is Christ.
Therefore, the law pointed to Christ
You're offering confirmation bias as to "show" me...that's not showing me.
.
.
You answered my question with a non answer, deflecting back to me, to answer a question that is a significant question to a practicing SDA.
And then, you ask me to show you where the Decalogue points to Christ, and I made a syllogism showing you how it points to Christ, and you tell me I didn't show you where. IT IS RIGHT IN THE VERY WORDS OF THE COMMANDMENTS THEMSELVES!!!
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
- BavarianWheels
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
I showed you the text(s) that show the commandments to be fulfilled in LOVE.RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 2:07 pmAnd this is why people don't want to have a conversation with you.BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 2:01 pmYou tell me...if the commandments are fulfilled in love and love is the fruit of the Spirit...then...as the texts I point to that said the Law is fulfilled in Love and Galatians lists love as a fruit of the Spirit.RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pmRickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:14 pm
Bav,
Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?
BavarianWheels wrote:
Are you suggesting that love is not a fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22,23 It's the first one, for crying out loud.
--------------------------------
Why can't you answer my question? Is sabbath observance, fruit that is shown by one who is saved?
Again, you're not showing me where in the Decalogue it points to Christ, the redeemer.RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pmI did answer. I told you that the law points to sin. And sin shows that we need a redeemer. The law doesn't point to sin, just to point to sin! The law didn't point out sin just to show that people are worthless sinners with no hope.BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:02 pm
The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.
The law pointed to sin.
Sin points to the need for a redeemer.
The redeemer is Christ.
Therefore, the law pointed to Christ
You're offering confirmation bias as to "show" me...that's not showing me.
.
.
You answered my question with a non answer, deflecting back to me, to answer a question that is a significant question to a practicing SDA.
And then, you ask me to show you where the Decalogue points to Christ, and I made a syllogism showing you how it points to Christ, and you tell me I didn't show you where. IT IS RIGHT IN THE VERY WORDS OF THE COMMANDMENTS THEMSELVES!!!
Then I showed you that one of the fruits of the Spirit IS LOVE.
Therefore that answers your question.
But you haven't shown me where the Decalogue's words point to Christ, the redeemer. If your point is that love is the central theme of the Decalogue ( and I would agree ) that doesn't point me to Christ the redeemer, but to God the Creator and how He wants us to engage/interact/love Him and how we should love one another.
That you equate love with Jesus, the redeemer is a confirmation bias. It's not shown in the words of the Decalogue, but an implication, by bias.
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.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Yes, I will try to keep all my Saturdays (24 hours New York time) holy and free from unnecessary work as the Father and the Son commands. That will be my only Sabbath day to show my love for God for making such a wonderful universe. I will also try to not make and worship any graven images, try to stop murdering people, love my dam neighbor (or try to tolerate him), and to stop lusting after the old lady next door. If I fail and sin then I will ask Jesus to forgive me and I will try not to sin again.RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 12:18 pmDo you keep all of Saturday holy?warren631 wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:50 amJesus said “If ye love me keep my commandments” (John 14:15). After all this heated discussion I will answer my own question with a definite YES! If I fail then Jesus will forgive me if I have faith and love Him. Anyway, keeping Saturday holy and not murdering anyone will not be too onerous for me.![]()
Do you keep any or all of another day holy?
BTW, who on this board has a PhD in Christian Theology from a well respected college (not the on-line ones)?