God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

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BavarianWheels
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

#241

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:15 am

DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 am
sure it can... again...
Read Exodus 19-24... It's all right there..
I have.
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 am
Wrong... Wrong... Wrong...
Christ is not righteous because he keeps the Law.
Christ is able to keep the law BECAUSE he is righteous.
That IS more correct. Agreed. However the point being that the Law either condemns or it doesn't...and it doesn't condemn Christ because He IS righteous....and being righteous means He is NOT guilty of committing sin...which the Law is the measure thereof.
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 am
Rhetorical question... I think you know the answer...
Was anyone ever saved by keeping the Old Covenant?
Rhetorical answer: YES! They had the assurance of God's promise/salvation in the same manner we have assurance in God's promise/salvation fulfilled in Christ. Abraham was declared righteous THROUGH faith! It doesn't say Abraham would eventually be declared righteous... No one has been saved yet, literally. Christ's reward is with Him... Revelation 22:12

We are still in this body of sin.
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 am
Almost but not quite... OT saints were saved through faith in YHWH not faith in the Old Covenant.
The object of saving faith has always been YHWH (and Jesus is YHWH).
God cannot save without blood! Hebrews 9:22 If it were simply YHWH, there would be no need for the law...the covenant spoken of in Hebrews 9:22
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 am
If that is your position then your position is not Scriptural.
The Law is not the ONLY function to show people their sinfulness.
See Romans 1:18-20 and Romans 2:14-15
Heh...are you suggesting that the Law functions as a showing of God's wrath? Because I'm talking about the 10...not arguing about God's wrath, God's existence nor God being Creator...which Romans 1:18-20 is speaking about.

I've highlighted what this text is referring to plainly:
Romans 1:18-20 NIV wrote:The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
People are without excuse about God's power and divine nature.

Romans 2:14-15 is speaking exactly about the Law ( the 10 ) point out sin or basic morals intrinsic in God's creation of Man.
Romans 2:14-15 NIV wrote:14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
The Law points at sin ( to the believer ) and to "objective" morality to the unbeliever by their own conscience.

You haven't proven it has another function.
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 am
I know exactly what a conditional statement is.
And I also know that an if/then statement is by definition a conditional statement.

Now here's Exodus 19:5
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine

I hilighted the "if" for you and I hilighted the "then" for you.
According to Exodus 19:5 the Covenant that YHWH established with Israel at Sinai is by definition (if/then) a conditional covenant.
I thought we had already agreed that there is no salvation in following the Law ( the 10 )...how is it then that you're continually ADDING in the 10 as a condition...you said even "if/then". God's covenant is NOT IF you keep my 10 commandments THEN you will be saved. The covenant is if you keep my law, the covenant ( the law that describes the shadow of Christ's blood to come ) then you will be saved! That's the covenant.

The 10 are simply the MECHANISM that CURSES one as a sinner that needs a blood covering.

You know what conditional is, but you're then applying it to something WE'VE agreed is impossible to keep. Therefore the 10 are NOT part of the condition to be kept.

It's simply not logical.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

#242

Post by DBowling » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:12 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:15 am
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 am
Rhetorical question... I think you know the answer...
Was anyone ever saved by keeping the Old Covenant?
Rhetorical answer: YES!
Well, I thought you knew you knew the answer, but you evidently don't.
We are saved by grace through faith.
We are not saved by works, we are not saved by the Law, we are not saved by our ability to keep any covenant.

This error on your part is huuuuuuuuge!
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 am
Almost but not quite... OT saints were saved through faith in YHWH not faith in the Old Covenant.
The object of saving faith has always been YHWH (and Jesus is YHWH).
God cannot save without blood! Hebrews 9:22 If it were simply YHWH, there would be no need for the law...the covenant spoken of in Hebrews 9:22
If you really mean what you are saying here then your error is also significant.
The object of saving faith for us is Jesus (who is YHWH).
The object of saving faith for Abraham was YHWH.

Now of course we are saved because Christ paid the death penalty for our sins.
However, it is faith in Christ that saves us, not faith in any Law or Covenant.

You seriously need to rethink this one.

The Law points at sin ( to the believer ) and to "objective" morality to the unbeliever by their own conscience.

You haven't proven it has another function.
I have demonstrated multiple times from Exodus 19-24 that the Law described in Exodus 20-23 also functions as a condition for the covenant that YHWH established with Israel at Sinai.
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 am
I know exactly what a conditional statement is.
And I also know that an if/then statement is by definition a conditional statement.

Now here's Exodus 19:5
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine

I hilighted the "if" for you and I hilighted the "then" for you.
According to Exodus 19:5 the Covenant that YHWH established with Israel at Sinai is by definition (if/then) a conditional covenant.
I thought we had already agreed that there is no salvation in following the Law ( the 10 )
That is absolutely correct!
...how is it then that you're continually ADDING in the 10 as a condition...you said even "if/then". God's covenant is NOT IF you keep my 10 commandments THEN you will be saved. The covenant is if you keep my law, the covenant ( the law that describes the shadow of Christ's blood to come ) then you will be saved! That's the covenant.
You are conflating two very different things here...
The Sinai covenant has nothing to do with being saved.
We are not saved by keeping any Law, we are not saved by keeping any covenant.
You know what conditional is, but you're then applying it to something WE'VE agreed is impossible to keep. Therefore the 10 are NOT part of the condition to be kept.
OK... this is important... so let's break this one down...
(Then later we can look at whether the 10 Commandments described in Exodus 20 are part of the covenant described in Exodus 19-24)
Do you agree that the covenant described in Exodus 19:5 is an if/then covenant?
Do you agree that the covenant described in Exodus 19:5 is a conditional covenant?

Exodus 19:5
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

#243

Post by RickD » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:20 pm

warren631 wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:29 am
A pretentious narcissist (see Jeremiah 9:23) listed all the OT laws to insult me and to confuse others. The subject only concerns God's ten commandments. Moses' tablets must have been pretty heavy if they contained all the laws listed.
Congratulations!!!

Per this pretentious narcissist, you have just earned an all expenses paid, 6 month ban vacation!!!
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

#244

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:53 pm

DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:12 pm
BavarianWheels wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:15 am
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 am
Rhetorical question... I think you know the answer...
Was anyone ever saved by keeping the Old Covenant?
Rhetorical answer: YES!
Well, I thought you knew you knew the answer, but you evidently don't.
We are saved by grace through faith.
We are not saved by works, we are not saved by the Law, we are not saved by our ability to keep any covenant.

This error on your part is huuuuuuuuge!
Again...where is it I said we are saved by works. I said the covenant is one of faith...that is the covenant that we keep...God cannot save us apart from US having faith. John 3:16 is proof of this. "Whosoever believes..."
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:12 pm
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 am
Almost but not quite... OT saints were saved through faith in YHWH not faith in the Old Covenant.
The object of saving faith has always been YHWH (and Jesus is YHWH).
God cannot save without blood! Hebrews 9:22 If it were simply YHWH, there would be no need for the law...the covenant spoken of in Hebrews 9:22
If you really mean what you are saying here then your error is also significant.
The object of saving faith for us is Jesus (who is YHWH).
The object of saving faith for Abraham was YHWH.

Now of course we are saved because Christ paid the death penalty for our sins.
However, it is faith in Christ that saves us, not faith in any Law or Covenant.

You seriously need to rethink this one.
Not really...I think we are simply speaking past each other. I said plainly that the covenant we keep...the IF is faith the THEN is Christ by grace through His blood.
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:12 pm
You are conflating two very different things here...
The Sinai covenant has nothing to do with being saved.
We are not saved by keeping any Law, we are not saved by keeping any covenant.
What!?! The whole basis of the covenant IS BLOOD! It's ALL about being saved through the blood.
DBowling wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:12 pm
Do you agree that the covenant described in Exodus 19:5 is an if/then covenant?
Do you agree that the covenant described in Exodus 19:5 is a conditional covenant?
Yes. It expressly says "covenant"
Yes. It expressly says "covenant"

There is no wording in the 10 that would suggest it is a covenant...a promise...an IF/THEN covenant.

It's not even speaking of obeying the 10 at all...because as we've agreed, NO ONE CAN obey the 10 as unto salvation...there for it is not part of the condition/covenant EXCEPT as the mechanism that curses the sinner.
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

#245

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:56 pm

RickD wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:20 pm
warren631 wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:29 am
A pretentious narcissist (see Jeremiah 9:23) listed all the OT laws to insult me and to confuse others. The subject only concerns God's ten commandments. Moses' tablets must have been pretty heavy if they contained all the laws listed.
Congratulations!!!

Per this pretentious narcissist, you have just earned an all expenses paid, 6 month ban vacation!!!
When you call yourself the name, it lessens the emphasis to which you wield your powers.

I think you miss the point he makes in that this thread is expressly about the 10 and not the ceremonial laws which you listed that we agree are nailed to the cross...though some would also ADD IN the separate 10 God wrote in stone.

Is sarcasm a one way street here that you can't appreciate it when you're on the receiving end?
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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

#246

Post by RickD » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:00 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:56 pm
RickD wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:20 pm
warren631 wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:29 am
A pretentious narcissist (see Jeremiah 9:23) listed all the OT laws to insult me and to confuse others. The subject only concerns God's ten commandments. Moses' tablets must have been pretty heavy if they contained all the laws listed.
Congratulations!!!

Per this pretentious narcissist, you have just earned an all expenses paid, 6 month ban vacation!!!
When you call yourself the name, it lessens the emphasis to which you wield your powers.

I think you miss the point he makes in that this thread is expressly about the 10 and not the ceremonial laws which you listed that we agree are nailed to the cross...though some would also ADD IN the separate 10 God wrote in stone.

Is sarcasm a one way street here that you can't appreciate it when you're on the receiving end?
.
.
And you can join him. 6 months for you.

And I apologize to DBowling, and Philip, and anyone else who was attempting to get through to Bav.

Enough is enough.

Edit:
I changed my mind. I changed your ban to 1 week. Even pretentious narcissists can show some grace occasionally.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

#247

Post by RickD » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:27 pm

warren631 wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:29 am
A pretentious narcissist (see Jeremiah 9:23) listed all the OT laws to insult me and to confuse others. The subject only concerns God's ten commandments. Moses' tablets must have been pretty heavy if they contained all the laws listed.
For those following along, I'd like to explain what's going on. In the original post of this thread, warren631 posted this:
IMHO: I consider the ten commandments God's law and are therefore very important and to ignore His Laws is a grave sin against our Lord God.
He said "to ignore His laws is a grave sin...". So, I posted over 600 laws, to make a point that warren631 is not consistent with his argument. Instead of dealing with the obvious point I was making, he decided to personally attack me, and claim the subject of the thread only concerns the 10 commandments, when it's obvious from his original post, that he opened up the thread to much more than the 10 commandments.

It's clear that he's only here to preach at anyone who disagrees with him, and that's just not going to be allowed. Anyone such as warren631, who is not a Christian, is allowed to post on this board, as long as he's respectful, and follows the rules. Non Christians who argue against essential Christian beliefs such as arguing against the deity of Christ, will be afforded a very short leash. And warren631 continues to choke himself on that leash.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?

#248

Post by LittleHamster » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:22 pm

I enjoyed reading this (warren you still there ?). Here's a Quick Summary (short version):

- There was a controversy that troubled the early New Testament church which was whether God required Gentile Christians to be circumcised and live according to the Law of Moses.

- The position of some Jewish Christians was that "Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the Law of Moses" (Acts 15:5). Without the authorization of the apostles (verse 24), they had spread this disturbing message to certain Gentile congregations.

- The basic message of Paul’s preaching to the Gentiles was that their salvation was a gift that came through faith in Jesus Christ, and that they were complete in him. Paul placed no demands on his converts that they be either circumcised or required to perform other Old Testament laws as preconditions for justification.

- Paul strongly resisted the idea that adherence to the Law of Moses was a requirement for salvation or for maintaining one’s salvation. He appears to have fought a running battle with these "Judaizers," whom he regarded as "false brothers" who had infiltrated the Gentile churches (Galatians 2:4). He wrote his epistle to the Galatian church to counter their teaching, which he labeled a "different gospel" (Galatians 1:6).

- Despite his vigorous efforts, Paul was unable by himself to stamp out the Judaizers’ heresy. He therefore went to Jerusalem to have the church leaders settle the issue. This conference is recorded in Acts 15. After considerable discussion, Peter addressed the council. He explained how God first gave to uncircumcised Gentiles the Holy Spirit, thus revealing to Peter that God had accepted them (verse 8 ). God, said Peter, "made no distinction between us [Jews] and them, for he purified their hearts by faith" (verse 9).

- In countering the Galatian heresy, Paul did not limit himself to addressing only the ritualistic part of the Law of Moses. His strategy in his letter was to show that the entire old covenant (that is, the Mosaic covenant) had ended and has been replaced by a new covenant (Galatians 4:24–26).

- Paul goes on to explain the purpose of the old covenant law. It was to serve as a custodian or schoolmaster for the children of Israel "until faith should be revealed" (verse 23). In other words, the old covenant law was designed to keep them in the knowledge of God until Christ came, after which faith in Christ would prevail (verse 24).

- Paul concludes: "Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law" (verse 25).

- Christians now live under that new covenant and are not obligated to live according to the requirements of the old covenant. They are justified through faith in Jesus Christ, and justification does not require additional works of the law.2

- In chapters 5 and 6, Paul explains the implications in one’s behavior of living under the new covenant.

- In what way, then, is our relationship to old covenant law transformed through faith in Jesus Christ? "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes" (Romans 10:4). The Greek word telos, translated as "end," can mean 1) termination," "cessation," or 2) "goal," "culmination," "fulfillment".

- A major purpose of God’s law is to lead humans to Christ by convicting them of sin. But because believers are justified by Christ’s righteousness, the law has no claim over them in the legal sense. After explaining in Romans 7 the accusatory nature of the law and that rescue is through Jesus Christ, Paul writes, "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1–2)

- To overcome this stumbling block for Jews, the church asked Gentiles to avoid eating meat that had idolatrous associations, blood and meat that had not been properly drained of blood. Because these dietary rules would facilitate good relations with the Jewish community and fellowship with Jewish believers, and were not given as requirements for salvation, Paul had no objection to asking Gentile Christians to observe them.

- Questions and controversies about the law of God for Christians continued to disturb the early church. Thus, Paul continued to address the subject in the letters he subsequently wrote to various churches and ministers.

- Paul describes himself as not being under the law. From the context it is obvious he means Mosaic Law, the law of the old covenant. But this does not mean he saw himself as without law. Paul was not free from God’s law — he was now under "Christ’s law." It is important to appreciate this distinction. The Mosaic Law was God’s law for the nation of Israel under the old covenant. The "law of Christ" is God’s law for Christians in the New Testament era. The two are not the same.

- Paul used the phrase "law of Christ" after writing about living "by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16, 25) as opposed to living "under law" (verse 18). Because the Galatian members were so enamored with law, Paul used the word law in a way they had not anticipated. They were not under Mosaic Law, but they were under the law of Christ, which required them to bear each other’s burdens.

- Finally, the opponents of Paul charged that the Gospel he preached led to loose living. By stressing the law, Judaism had stressed morality. Jews looked down on Gentile sin and excesses. But what would happen if the law should be taken away? Clearly, lawlessness and immorality would increase, the legalizers argued. Paul replies that this is not true (chapters 5, 6). It is not true because Christianity does not lead the believer away from the law into nothingness. It leads him to Jesus Christ, who, in the person of the Holy Spirit, comes to dwell within him and furnishes him with the new nature that alone is capable of doing what God desires. The change is internal.

- Paul’s conclusion concerning law is found in Romans 13:8–10: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. For Paul, a Christian’s obligation was to love, and everything else was secondary. Regarding circumcision, for example, Paul wrote: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (Galatians 5:6)"

- Under the old covenant, the Israelites lived according to the Law of Moses. Under the new covenant, Christians are to live according to the law of Christ. The difference is love generated by the Holy Spirit. It is possible to fulfill outwardly the Law of Moses without love in your heart. It is impossible to fulfill the law of Christ unless there is love in your heart.

- The result of attempting to relate to God through obedience to Old Testament law, or even to a "New Testament" set of rules, is to descend into legalism. Christianity becomes regulations. The gospel is reduced to a law system.

- Christians today can choose to live according to Mosaic Law, just as Jewish Christians did in the first century a.d. However, their law-keeping will not cause God to give them his Spirit and work miracles in their lives (Galatians 3:5). Nor will it lead them into a deeper understanding of spiritual truths, compared to those who live according to the law of Christ. The opposite may even be true, because the more Christians rely on law to direct them, the less they rely on the Spirit. It seems that it is impossible to rely on law and the Spirit simultaneously — it’s either one or the other. This is the point Paul makes in Galatians 3:1–5. The Galatians had received the Spirit through believing in Christ, not through human observance of the law. Paul asks, "After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" (verse 3).


Long version -> https://www.gci.org/law/lawtoday
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