I have no issue that they ( the 10 ) are part of the covenant.
Are you willing to admit that they ( the 10 ) are not A covenant?
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I have no issue that they ( the 10 ) are part of the covenant.
We're getting closerBavarianWheels wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:08 amI have no issue that they ( the 10 ) are part of the covenant.
I'm not sure what you are getting at with "a" vs "the"... could you clarify?Are you willing to admit that they ( the 10 ) are not A covenant?
I wouldn't say that the 10 are the totality of the covenant. We agree on your wording above.
Yea!BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:00 amI wouldn't say that the 10 are the totality of the covenant. We agree on your wording above.
The 10 Commandments are part of the conditions in Exodus 20-23 that Israel is agreeing to obey.So then the question becomes about how you PLACE the 10.
Are the 10 a covenant? Do the 10 possess within the wording of the 10, any sort of promise that they would then be a covenant?
YHWH then tells Moses that if Israel keeps his covenant then "they will be a treasured possession", "a kingdom of priests", and "a holy nation"3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”
Then in Exodus 20-23 YHWH provides a number of commands that function as the conditions of his covenant with Israel.7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the Lord had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.
We half agree.DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:54 pmThe 10 Commandments are part of the conditions in Exodus 20-23 that Israel is agreeing to obey.
YHWH proposes the covenant with Israel in Exodus 19:3-6YHWH then tells Moses that if Israel keeps his covenant then "they will be a treasured possession", "a kingdom of priests", and "a holy nation"3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”
The people respond to YHWH's proposal in Exodus 19:7-8Then in Exodus 20-23 YHWH provides a number of commands that function as the conditions of his covenant with Israel.7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the Lord had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.
Not a condition! It's impossible to keep as all are born sinners. This is the part you're simply not getting. It is part of the covenant ONLY in the sense that IT CURSES SIN/the Sinner. Therefore there is need of a blood covenant to cover the sinner...and we are ALL in need of Christ's blood covering.
Agreed... and that was the problem with the Old Covenant.BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:12 pmWe half agree.DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:54 pmThe 10 Commandments are part of the conditions in Exodus 20-23 that Israel is agreeing to obey.
YHWH proposes the covenant with Israel in Exodus 19:3-6YHWH then tells Moses that if Israel keeps his covenant then "they will be a treasured possession", "a kingdom of priests", and "a holy nation"3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”
The people respond to YHWH's proposal in Exodus 19:7-8Then in Exodus 20-23 YHWH provides a number of commands that function as the conditions of his Covenant with Israel.7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the Lord had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.
Israel ( anyone who believes in the covenant, anyone that is a child of God including NT Gentiles ) CANNOT keep ANY of the 10 commandments in any way, shape or form ( Romans 8:7 )
Of course it is. Read Exodus 19:5-6.
And specifically, what does that mean happens to the Old Covenant? Or, how does the New Covenant affect the Old Covenant?DBowling wrote:
And since Israel was unable to fulfill their part of the Old Covenant, God promised to establish a New Covenant with the House of Israel.
Hebrew 8:6-13 answers that specific question.RickD wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:02 pmAnd specifically, what does that mean happens to the Old Covenant? Or, how does the New Covenant affect the Old Covenant?DBowling wrote:
And since Israel was unable to fulfill their part of the Old Covenant, God promised to establish a New Covenant with the House of Israel.
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
[f]When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
[g]I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From [h]the least to the greatest of them.
12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”
13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [j]ready to disappear.
That's not what I'm in agreement with. The covenant exists BECAUSE Man, since/through the 1st Adam, is sinful. The 10 are not A covenant nor are they THE covenant. I'm trying to be as plain as possible, but you keep lumping the two together as fulfilling one ( the 10 ) is salvation. Paul clearly makes a distinction in promoting the 10 as a means of exposing sin. ( Romans 3:31, Romans 7:12, Romans 3:20 )
Again, this sounds ok, but it depends on what you mean when you say "failed to obey the Covenant". If you're including the 10 in that statement, then I disagree since "ALL have sinned and fall short...". It's not a matter of obeying the 10. That's impossible.
Yes, but the work of Jesus is not to remove the Law ( the 10 that measure righteousness ) to gain salvation, but rather the law that points to Christ as the Lamb AND the Law's condemnation ( Galatians 3:13 ) ( the 10 show sin ) that was a curse. The Law ( the 10 ) themselves are not a curse...they point at sin. The Law is holy, righteous and good. ( Romans 7:12 ) The Law ( the 10 ) is separate to the covenant/the promise ( Galatians 3:15-18 )
I'm sorry, DB...as respectfully as I can, it is impossible that the Law ( the 10 ) are a condition of the covenant. You don't believe that. Here's why; we are saved by faith, not by keeping the commands of the Law which is the measurement of righteousness, the measure of having sin or being guiltless of sin. ( Romans 8:4 ) Christ did it. They/We could never. It isn't a condition. The condition is in the ceremonial law and the faith that one puts in the Blood that is the condition.
The new covenant is not a Law...it is BLOOD...not of animals ( old covenant ) but of Christ's own blood. ( the new covenant ) ( Luke 22:20, Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25 ) The covenant is: Do this and I will do that. Have faith in Me and I will save you from your sins. There exists no such wording in the 10. The 10 merely exist to expose sin...and sin still exists.
I'm not sure what you mean here, RickD.
The old covenant is the shadow. It only worked through faith in the promise of a COMING Lamb of God though which salvation was gained. Salvation was never gained through the shedding of animal blood NOR could it be gained through keeping the Law ( the 10 ), but keeping and having faith in the promise THROUGH the law ( the shedding of animal blood ) which was the old covenant law..."Do this and have faith and I will do this and save you."
According to Exodus 19-24, the 10 Commandments (and the rest of Exodus 20-23) are the conditions that God established for Israel in the Covenant that God established with Israel at Sinai.BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:25 amThat's not what I'm in agreement with. The covenant exists BECAUSE Man, since/through the 1st Adam, is sinful. The 10 are not A covenant nor are they THE covenant.
I'm trying to be as plain as possible, but you keep lumping the two together as fulfilling one ( the 10 ) is salvation.
at the risk of beating a dead horse...Again, this sounds ok, but it depends on what you mean when you say "failed to obey the Covenant". If you're including the 10 in that statement, then I disagree since "ALL have sinned and fall short...". It's not a matter of obeying the 10.
And as respectfully as I can... I respectfully recommend that you reread Exodus 19-24. Your assertion is in direct conflict with Holy Spirit inspired Scripture.I'm sorry, DB...as respectfully as I can, it is impossible that the Law ( the 10 ) are a condition of the covenant.
I agree...we are saved by faith, not by keeping the commands of the Law
I think this may be the focal point of your error.It isn't a condition. The condition is in the ceremonial law and the faith that one puts in the Blood that is the condition.
The 10 cannot be a condition. Why? Because the 10 SOLELY exist as a measure of sin or righteousness depending on one's state. ( sinful or perfect i.e. Christ ) The NT/Paul is clear on this.
This is wrong. Christ is righteous because He keeps the Law ( the 10 that either point at one's sin or prove on sinless not having sinned )
Correct. They ( prior to Christ ) were saved/declared righteous through faith in the old covenant being fulfilled by God at a later date. The Promise. We are saved/declared righteous through faith in the new covenant, Christ's blood which is the fulfillment of the old.
This is misquoting me or simply not understanding what it is I am saying.
It is not a condition. I don't think you know what that word means. If you did, you'd agree with me ( as you did above ) that it cannot be a condition of the covenant SINCE WE/NO ONE has EVER kept it. It's impossible...hence the need for Christ's righteousness to cover us, His blood.
No...it's not impossible to obey the conditions of the old covenant. The old covenant was a group of laws describing the redemption process of blood covering sin...first by the shadow of the reality ( animal blood ) and then the fulfillment of that promise ( Christ's Blood ) in the new. Fulfilling the covenant is simply having faith. Faith in the blood. We cannot obey the 10 as a condition for salvation. IF we could, Christ was needlessly sacrificed!
If you believe what you just wrote, then the 10 cannot be a CONDITION...a method...an obligation...
sure it can... again...
Wrong... Wrong... Wrong...
Rhetorical question... I think you know the answer...However, God's covenant ( the blood ) does save!
Almost but not quite... OT saints were saved through faith in YHWH not faith in the Old Covenant.Correct. They ( prior to Christ ) were saved/declared righteous through faith in the old covenant being fulfilled by God at a later date. The Promise. We are saved/declared righteous through faith in the new covenant, Christ's blood which is the fulfillment of the old.
If that is your position then your position is not Scriptural.The Law ( the 10 ) is NOT one of the functions to show people their sinfulness...it is THE ONLY function to show people their sinfulness. ( Romans 3:20, etc ) The ceremonial law showed people the consequence of sin...IT pointed to Christ being the Lamb ultimately crucified.
I know exactly what a conditional statement is.It is not a condition. I don't think you know what that word means.