Nephilim -Mark 12:25

Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
Post Reply
User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21491
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 200 times
Been liked: 1101 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#76

Post by RickD » Thu May 03, 2018 4:00 pm

B. W. wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:20 am
Scientists build 'synthetic embryos'

You know I find it absolutely amazing the human scientist are more brilliant and smarter and far more intelligent that fallen angels in manipulating DNA, blending two species of DNA together, etc and so forth and that angels cannot do this despite the high intelligence the fallen cherub (satan) has as mentioned in the bible in Ez 28:11-19... that they had to have physical act of sexual procreation involved in order to corrupt the human gene pool instead of being smart enough to modify human DNA....

Next,I also find it ironic how in Revelation 12:7,9 that Satan is identified as leading angel and how he appears in the book of Job not as an angel, rather strange isn't?

Then this

Question: "What are cherubim? Are cherubs angels?"

and...
Dictionary.com defines Cherubium - cherub
cher·ub
noun
plural noun: cherubim

...a winged angelic being described in biblical tradition as attending on God. It is represented in ancient Middle Eastern art as a lion or bull with eagles' wings and a human face, and regarded in traditional Christian angelology as an angel of the second highest order of the ninefold celestial hierarchy
So I guess in order for the Sethite or Human Leader view to be true of Gen 6:1-4 then the Satan cannot be an angel ...

Wow, how explicit do I need to be?

Add to this the the phrase, that old serpent from old - dragon, is an expressive symbol of cunning, not necessarily a real snake or dragon in order to describe the diabolic cunning intelligence of the fallen Cherub known as the Head Adversary why people, human being who are far smarter than any fallen angel could ever be, as proven by human scientist manipulation human DNA that people are far smarter than angels, can't see this is amazing as well.

Of course I am politely pointing out that Human beings are not smarter nor wiser than any angel especially the one Mentioned in the bible we call the head Satan... whom God nick named the serpent of old, that old dragon...
-
-
-
After reading that synthetic embryos link, it got me thinking more about your manipulated DNA theory. If men can create synthetic mouse embryos, it seems plausible that Satan may be able to manipulate human DNA in order to create a race of giant beings. So, say for the sake of the argument, that I go along with this idea, how do I twist scripture to make it fit? Do we need to change meanings of words in order to get this to work? Do we just ignore what the text actually says, and just claim that it doesn't need to be in scripture? Do I get to call everyone crazy who doesn't believe this theory?

Or maybe, just maybe, since most of us take the Bible seriously, maybe we could just stick to scripture, and ignore pagan myths and non canon books that conflict with the Bible. Does that seem unreasonable?

:wave:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Stu
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:32 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 12 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#77

Post by Stu » Thu May 03, 2018 11:12 pm

RickD wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 4:00 pm
B. W. wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:20 am
Scientists build 'synthetic embryos'

You know I find it absolutely amazing the human scientist are more brilliant and smarter and far more intelligent that fallen angels in manipulating DNA, blending two species of DNA together, etc and so forth and that angels cannot do this despite the high intelligence the fallen cherub (satan) has as mentioned in the bible in Ez 28:11-19... that they had to have physical act of sexual procreation involved in order to corrupt the human gene pool instead of being smart enough to modify human DNA....

Next,I also find it ironic how in Revelation 12:7,9 that Satan is identified as leading angel and how he appears in the book of Job not as an angel, rather strange isn't?

Then this

Question: "What are cherubim? Are cherubs angels?"

and...
Dictionary.com defines Cherubium - cherub
cher·ub
noun
plural noun: cherubim

...a winged angelic being described in biblical tradition as attending on God. It is represented in ancient Middle Eastern art as a lion or bull with eagles' wings and a human face, and regarded in traditional Christian angelology as an angel of the second highest order of the ninefold celestial hierarchy
So I guess in order for the Sethite or Human Leader view to be true of Gen 6:1-4 then the Satan cannot be an angel ...

Wow, how explicit do I need to be?

Add to this the the phrase, that old serpent from old - dragon, is an expressive symbol of cunning, not necessarily a real snake or dragon in order to describe the diabolic cunning intelligence of the fallen Cherub known as the Head Adversary why people, human being who are far smarter than any fallen angel could ever be, as proven by human scientist manipulation human DNA that people are far smarter than angels, can't see this is amazing as well.

Of course I am politely pointing out that Human beings are not smarter nor wiser than any angel especially the one Mentioned in the bible we call the head Satan... whom God nick named the serpent of old, that old dragon...
-
-
-
After reading that synthetic embryos link, it got me thinking more about your manipulated DNA theory. If men can create synthetic mouse embryos, it seems plausible that Satan may be able to manipulate human DNA in order to create a race of giant beings. So, say for the sake of the argument, that I go along with this idea, how do I twist scripture to make it fit? Do we need to change meanings of words in order to get this to work? Do we just ignore what the text actually says, and just claim that it doesn't need to be in scripture? Do I get to call everyone crazy who doesn't believe this theory?

Or maybe, just maybe, since most of us take the Bible seriously, maybe we could just stick to scripture, and ignore pagan myths and non canon books that conflict with the Bible. Does that seem unreasonable?

:wave:
Boy, are you in for a surprise :ebiggrin:
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 228 times
Been liked: 106 times
Contact:

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#78

Post by neo-x » Thu May 03, 2018 11:39 pm

Life on planet earth arose from a single dna. So that is why skne of it can be "mixed". And even that has limits. However Angels don't have a dna. Or if they do they can't reproduce because of the limits of the human dna. It is the same if a man's and a goat's seed is mixed. It won't produce a halfman half goat creature. It is not a matter of how smart you are something you just can't do. So the idea that humans marrying angels will breed giants is simply impossible.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

User avatar
Stu
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:32 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 12 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#79

Post by Stu » Fri May 04, 2018 12:17 am

neo-x wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:39 pm
Life on planet earth arose from a single dna. So that is why skne of it can be "mixed". And even that has limits. However Angels don't have a dna. Or if they do they can't reproduce because of the limits of the human dna. It is the same if a man's and a goat's seed is mixed. It won't produce a halfman half goat creature. It is not a matter of how smart you are something you just can't do. So the idea that humans marrying angels will breed giants is simply impossible.
Um and you know this how exactly?

If anything the Bible tells us that angels CAN become like man and eat and converse with human kind and you might not even know it.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

DBowling
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 27 times
Been liked: 172 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#80

Post by DBowling » Fri May 04, 2018 4:08 am

Stu wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:17 am
neo-x wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:39 pm
Life on planet earth arose from a single dna. So that is why skne of it can be "mixed". And even that has limits. However Angels don't have a dna. Or if they do they can't reproduce because of the limits of the human dna. It is the same if a man's and a goat's seed is mixed. It won't produce a halfman half goat creature. It is not a matter of how smart you are something you just can't do. So the idea that humans marrying angels will breed giants is simply impossible.
Um and you know this how exactly?

If anything the Bible tells us that angels CAN become like man and eat and converse with human kind and you might not even know it.
Scripture says that angels can appear as humans, but mimicking humans is very different from becoming human.

Jesus became human, he was conceived, his human body developed in his mother's womb for nine months, and he was born human.
Angels are by nature spirit beings (which actually does relate to Mark 12:25). In Scripture they occasionally appear to people in different ways. Sometimes that appearance is a human appearance, but Scripture does not claim that angels become human.

Temporarily taking on a human appearance (what angels do) is not the same thing as becoming human (what Jesus did).

Jesus got human DNA from his mother. There is no Scriptural evidence that spirit beings like angels even have DNA. And there is no Scriptural evidence to support the premise that it is even possible for humans and angels to procreate.

User avatar
Stu
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:32 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 12 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#81

Post by Stu » Fri May 04, 2018 4:27 am

DBowling wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 4:08 am
Stu wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:17 am
neo-x wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:39 pm
Life on planet earth arose from a single dna. So that is why skne of it can be "mixed". And even that has limits. However Angels don't have a dna. Or if they do they can't reproduce because of the limits of the human dna. It is the same if a man's and a goat's seed is mixed. It won't produce a halfman half goat creature. It is not a matter of how smart you are something you just can't do. So the idea that humans marrying angels will breed giants is simply impossible.
Um and you know this how exactly?

If anything the Bible tells us that angels CAN become like man and eat and converse with human kind and you might not even know it.
Scripture says that angels can appear as humans, but mimicking humans is very different from becoming human.

Jesus became human, he was conceived, his human body developed in his mother's womb for nine months, and he was born human.
Angels are by nature spirit beings (which actually does relate to Mark 12:25). In Scripture they occasionally appear to people in different ways. Occasionally that appearance is a human appearance, but Scripture does not claim that angels become human.

Temporarily taking on a human appearance (what angels do) is not the same thing as becoming human (what Jesus did).

Jesus got human DNA from his mother. There is no Scriptural evidence that spirit beings like angels even have DNA. And there is no Scriptural evidence to support the premise that it is even possible for humans and angels to procreate.
Yes and there is no evidence that they can't either.
Angels can eat, that probably means they have a digestive system and are more than just a shell when they take human form. Also how would you mimic movement in a flesh body, you would need muscles and then bones, etc., etc.
The Bible also tells us that Satan can take the form as an angel of light - that implies that angels have shape-shifting capabilities to some extent.

Besides that is your opinion, for me Genesis 6 describes how angels took human wives and mated with them.
Otherwise, why even mention that men took human wives, that is stating the obvious and wouldn't need to be stated twice.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9203
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 347 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#82

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri May 04, 2018 4:41 am

B. W. wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 10:45 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:38 am
DBowling wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:58 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:38 am
You are probably thinking of Job 2:1
Some use Job 2:1 to assert that a fallen Satan is referred to as a "son of God"
Except that Job 2:1 doesn't actually say that at all.
We discussed this and there is enough to warrant that "The Satan" that accompanies the Sons of God in Job can just as easily be one of them as being WITH them.

The text allows for both interpretations.
But the simple fact that the text "allows for both interpretations" by definition means that it cannot be used as the only Scriptural basis for either interpretation.
Correct, unless an EXPLICIT statement is made ( The Word is God in John 1 for example), verses that can have multiple interpretations SHOULD not be used to make explicit statements OR doctrine for that matter.
If you use this rule then John 3:16 cannot be trusted nor Romans 10 - whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved...

Call how - believe how - not explicit and open to interpretation as is Genesis 1:1,2,3,4
-
-
-
I don't understand what you are saying here...

John 3:15 is an explicit statement that, all those that believe in Christ will be saved - hence the doctrine of salvation based on belief in Christ and His sacrifice for Us.
Romans 10 is an explicit statement that those that call on the Name of the Lord ( Christ) will be saved.

The only "gray" area in those may be saved from what - topic for another discussion, but I don't think that those verses imply or CAN imply, anything other than what they say, do you?

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9203
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 347 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#83

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri May 04, 2018 4:46 am

I really don't think that anyone is going to change anyone else mind on this.
I think that the most honest we can be is that there CAN be multiple interpretations of this.
That the view of angels procreating with human women is a possible one and one that, historically, was accepted by some in the past and continues to be accepted by some now.
The the Sethite view was accepted by some in the past and continues to be accepted by some now.
And that DB view is also a possible one.

In short, it seems that,because the text CAN and HAS been interpreted in various ways that we should remain open to the possibilities that our chosen interpretation ( whichever one it is) may be correct or may be wrong.
These users liked this post by PaulSacramento:
neo-x (Fri May 04, 2018 5:32 am)

DBowling
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 27 times
Been liked: 172 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#84

Post by DBowling » Fri May 04, 2018 5:00 am

Stu wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 4:27 am
Besides that is your opinion, for me Genesis 6 describes how angels took human wives and mated with them.
Otherwise, why even mention that men took human wives, that is stating the obvious and wouldn't need to be stated twice.
The problem is, Genesis 6 doesn't say that angels took human wives and mated with them. That is an extraScriptural assertion.
Genesis 6 says the "sons of God" procreated with the "daughters of men".

So the question in this thread (and others) is what does the phrase "sons of God" refer to in Genesis 6?
To answer that question I look to how the concept of "sons/children of God" is used elsewhere in Scripture.

Scripture does refer to God's covenant people as "sons/children of God".
Scripture never refers to fallen angels as "sons/children of God".

Therefore, if I am going to use Scripture to understand what a "son of God" is (especially with what Jesus says in John 8 ), then I am compelled to reject the extraScriptural premise that "sons of God" refers to fallen angels in Genesis 6.

Based on the Scriptural definition of "sons of God" I believe that in Genesis 6 "sons of God" refers to God's covenant people at the time. This view is supported by Luke 3:38 which explicitly refers to Adam (the first person to come into covenant relationship with God) as a "son of God".
And in Deut 14:1-2 God refers to the people he had chosen for his own possession as "sons of the Lord your God".

So that is my position and the Scriptural support for my position.
There is no Scriptural support for the position that "sons of God" refers to fallen angels anywhere in either the Old Testament or New Testament.
Last edited by DBowling on Fri May 04, 2018 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 228 times
Been liked: 106 times
Contact:

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#85

Post by neo-x » Fri May 04, 2018 5:33 am

Stu wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:17 am
neo-x wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:39 pm
Life on planet earth arose from a single dna. So that is why skne of it can be "mixed". And even that has limits. However Angels don't have a dna. Or if they do they can't reproduce because of the limits of the human dna. It is the same if a man's and a goat's seed is mixed. It won't produce a halfman half goat creature. It is not a matter of how smart you are something you just can't do. So the idea that humans marrying angels will breed giants is simply impossible.
Um and you know this how exactly?

If anything the Bible tells us that angels CAN become like man and eat and converse with human kind and you might not even know it.
Because angels don't have dna. Its a molecule that self replicates and is formed of proteins. So unless angels are reproducing angels, they don't have dna. Otherwise they would.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

DBowling
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 27 times
Been liked: 172 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#86

Post by DBowling » Fri May 04, 2018 5:58 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 4:46 am
I really don't think that anyone is going to change anyone else mind on this.
Well... the OP did say...
Would like this part of my worldview challenged. I know it's been talked on here before, but this thread is for me.
I am taking Mallz request for a dialogue at face value, so I am presenting my Scriptural reasoning for rejecting the human/angel hybrid theory.

User avatar
Stu
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:32 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 12 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#87

Post by Stu » Fri May 04, 2018 7:21 am

neo-x wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 5:33 am
Stu wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:17 am
neo-x wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:39 pm
Life on planet earth arose from a single dna. So that is why skne of it can be "mixed". And even that has limits. However Angels don't have a dna. Or if they do they can't reproduce because of the limits of the human dna. It is the same if a man's and a goat's seed is mixed. It won't produce a halfman half goat creature. It is not a matter of how smart you are something you just can't do. So the idea that humans marrying angels will breed giants is simply impossible.
Um and you know this how exactly?

If anything the Bible tells us that angels CAN become like man and eat and converse with human kind and you might not even know it.
Because angels don't have dna. Its a molecule that self replicates and is formed of proteins. So unless angels are reproducing angels, they don't have dna. Otherwise they would.
When angels take human form what does the body consist of then? How is it designed?
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 228 times
Been liked: 106 times
Contact:

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#88

Post by neo-x » Fri May 04, 2018 7:29 am

Stu wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:21 am
neo-x wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 5:33 am
Stu wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:17 am
neo-x wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:39 pm
Life on planet earth arose from a single dna. So that is why skne of it can be "mixed". And even that has limits. However Angels don't have a dna. Or if they do they can't reproduce because of the limits of the human dna. It is the same if a man's and a goat's seed is mixed. It won't produce a halfman half goat creature. It is not a matter of how smart you are something you just can't do. So the idea that humans marrying angels will breed giants is simply impossible.
Um and you know this how exactly?

If anything the Bible tells us that angels CAN become like man and eat and converse with human kind and you might not even know it.
Because angels don't have dna. Its a molecule that self replicates and is formed of proteins. So unless angels are reproducing angels, they don't have dna. Otherwise they would.
When angels take human form what does the body consist of then? How is it designed?
I don't know but I do know it isn't made up of dna. Because dna molecules have expiry dates built in, and is vulnerable. We age, we get sick, we die.

So an angel in human form can get flu or cancer if that is what they are made up of. Would you agree?
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 228 times
Been liked: 106 times
Contact:

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#89

Post by neo-x » Fri May 04, 2018 7:31 am

And the underlying point is that they can't breed with humans anymore than a cat and a human can.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

User avatar
Stu
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:32 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 12 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#90

Post by Stu » Fri May 04, 2018 7:33 am

neo-x wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:29 am
Stu wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:21 am
neo-x wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 5:33 am
Stu wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:17 am
neo-x wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:39 pm
Life on planet earth arose from a single dna. So that is why skne of it can be "mixed". And even that has limits. However Angels don't have a dna. Or if they do they can't reproduce because of the limits of the human dna. It is the same if a man's and a goat's seed is mixed. It won't produce a halfman half goat creature. It is not a matter of how smart you are something you just can't do. So the idea that humans marrying angels will breed giants is simply impossible.
Um and you know this how exactly?

If anything the Bible tells us that angels CAN become like man and eat and converse with human kind and you might not even know it.
Because angels don't have dna. Its a molecule that self replicates and is formed of proteins. So unless angels are reproducing angels, they don't have dna. Otherwise they would.
When angels take human form what does the body consist of then? How is it designed?
I don't know but I do know it isn't made up of dna. Because dna molecules have expiry dates built in, and is vulnerable. We age, we get sick, we die.

So an angel in human form can get flu or cancer if that is what they are made up of. Would you agree?
No, they could've been designed like we were in the past - to live to 900 years old.
Point is, we simply don't know.

But again according to Genesis 6 angels mated with human women. Some say otherwise.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

Post Reply