Nephilim -Mark 12:25

Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 19903
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino
Has liked: 173 times
Been liked: 958 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#181

Post by RickD » Mon May 14, 2018 12:09 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:30 am
RickD wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 3:52 pm
One would think that with the intranet webz nowadays, it would be fairly easy to find a list of the times that angels appeared in human form, in scripture. I just can't find any such list.


My question is if anyone can show anywhere in scripture that an angel appears in human form, other than a time when they appear as humans for a specific God given purpose?
Absence of evidence doesn't equal evidence of absence, you know that.
Of course Paul. But when holding to a doctrine, absence of evidence for that doctrine, is a pretty good argument against the doctrine. Don't you think?

We have explicit statements of :
People entertaining angels unaware.
And you think those angels that are entertained, are fallen angels?

Of angels violating God's commands and leaving their abode and being punished for it ( whatever that may reference).
Of angels sinning and being imprisoned ( whatever sin that may have been)
And so forth.
Of course, but again, they aren't sons of God.

I think it is disingenuous for us to suggest that, somehow, scholars and writers of the past, had NO BIBLICAL basis on which to believe that Genesis 5 COULD mean angels mating with human women.

Well, I haven't seen any good argument yet, showing any biblical basis for that belief.
My point of the question asking for scripture that shows angels taking human form any time other than when God has a specific purpose for them to take human form, was to show that the evidence points to angels taking human form only when God allows them to. In other words, where's the evidence that shows angels have the power in and of themselves, to change into human form when they choose?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 6895
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 291 times
Been liked: 534 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#182

Post by Philip » Mon May 14, 2018 4:28 pm

Rick: In other words, where's the evidence that shows angels have the power in and of themselves, to change into human form when they choose?
Interesting point. And while I don't buy the angels marrying human women belief, I must ask whether every time an demon desires to deceive, that God "greenlights" what they plan to do? If they can transform into an "angel of light," as Scripture indicates, they're doing it to deceive - which I don't think you'll find God behind. Pharoh's demonic snakes came from his magician's staffs - did God make that happen? I don't think so. It seems that God granted the demonic allowed the demonic limited tools which He controls the parameters of. And that is because God uses even the evil intentions of the demonic for HIS good purposes - which are NOT what the demonic intends - they are but tools of God.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#183

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue May 15, 2018 8:07 am

RickD wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:09 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:30 am
RickD wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 3:52 pm
One would think that with the intranet webz nowadays, it would be fairly easy to find a list of the times that angels appeared in human form, in scripture. I just can't find any such list.


My question is if anyone can show anywhere in scripture that an angel appears in human form, other than a time when they appear as humans for a specific God given purpose?
Absence of evidence doesn't equal evidence of absence, you know that.
Of course Paul. But when holding to a doctrine, absence of evidence for that doctrine, is a pretty good argument against the doctrine. Don't you think?

We have explicit statements of :
People entertaining angels unaware.
And you think those angels that are entertained, are fallen angels?

Of angels violating God's commands and leaving their abode and being punished for it ( whatever that may reference).
Of angels sinning and being imprisoned ( whatever sin that may have been)
And so forth.
Of course, but again, they aren't sons of God.

I think it is disingenuous for us to suggest that, somehow, scholars and writers of the past, had NO BIBLICAL basis on which to believe that Genesis 5 COULD mean angels mating with human women.

Well, I haven't seen any good argument yet, showing any biblical basis for that belief.
My point of the question asking for scripture that shows angels taking human form any time other than when God has a specific purpose for them to take human form, was to show that the evidence points to angels taking human form only when God allows them to. In other words, where's the evidence that shows angels have the power in and of themselves, to change into human form when they choose?

Honestly Rick, I think you are looking for arguments with confirmation bias.
If we put your litmus test to the WHOLE of the bible then we have LOTS of issues.

Where is the evidence that angles can assume human form by themselves?
Well, where is the evidence that God turns them?

Please explain, from the bible, what specific sin the angles that were imprisoned were guilt of?
Please direct me to the passages that says that angels are under the same rules as humans?
Please show me were and when, in the bible, God says that the Sons of God LOSE/ have lost their "sonship"?
Please show me where, in the bible, it is was a sin for humans ( whatever their lineage) to marry?
Genesis 6 states, explicitly, that God was saddend and that He put a limit on the life of Man because of the daughters of men and the sons of god marrying, why?
Please explain why the early texts, including the ones the apostles and first generations of Christian uses, state that the Nephilim were giants?

User avatar
B. W.
Board Moderator
Posts: 8303
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 252 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#184

Post by B. W. » Tue May 15, 2018 8:56 am

Here is an interesting verse:

Deut 32:8, When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, When He separated the sons of Adam, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel. NKJV

Nowhere in the bible does it ever say the sons of God are the sons of Seth or Leaders of men in reference to Gen 6.

NO WHERE - NO VERSE EVER SAYS SONS OF SETH WENT INTO THE DAUGHTERS OF CAIN OR ANY RULERS WENT INTO THE DAUGHTERS OF CAIN - GET IT NO VERSE DOES...

That is pure conjecture...

Deut 32:8 says this, When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, When He separated the sons of Adam, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel. NKJV

You have evidence that God called humanity - the sons of Adam - after the fall - period... and it is not until the advent of the indwelling Holy Spirit that it was possible to become adopted into the household of God through the New Birth by the work of Jesus Christ...that is solid scriptural points without any scripture twisting.

Next, You have bible evidence from these verses that clearly identify the sons of God in Gen 6 as angelic beings:

Job 38:4-7 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,...

...7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?


No Human beings were around when God laid the foundations of the earth - no sons of Seth, No sons of men period...

Sons of God refer to angelic beings...period

Then earlier form the same book: Angelic beings called sons of God period

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.


Further evidence regrading how even the apostles understood the sons of God in Gen 6 were not men you have Peter says this in direct reference to Noah:

Peter 2:4,5, For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly... NKJV

Next you have the book of Jude say things like this:

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day... NKJV

Then Jude inspired by God quotes the dreaded book of Enoch....

Jude 1:14-15 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." NKJV

Next you have Dr Utley in his Bible study commentary quoted below notes:

Jude 6:1
Jude 1:6 "angels" Jude adds "angels" to his lists of those who initially worshiped and later rebelled against YHWH and were thus destroyed or judged. But which "angels?" Some information is given to describe this particular group of angels.
1. they did not keep their own domain
2. they abandoned their proper abode
3. they will be kept in eternal bonds under darkness for judgment day
4. "sinned" (2Pe 2:4)
5. "committed them into Tartarus" (2Pe 2:4)
6. "committed them to pits of darkness reserved for judgment" (2Pe 2:4)
Which angels in the OT rebelled and sinned?
1. angels as powers behind pagan worship
2. the lesser angelic beings, called by specific demonic names in the OT. Examples: Lilith (cf. Isa 34:14), Azazel (cf. Lev 16:8), and goat demons (cf. Lev 17:7).
3. the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 (often discussed in intertestamental apocalyptic writings, I Enoch 86-88; 106; II Enoch 7,18; II Baruch 56; Jubilees 5)
4. angels mentioned in an example from a Jewish apocalyptic inter-testamental writing (because of Jude's use of other books of this kind in Jude 1:9; Jude1:14)

NASB "who did not keep their own domain"
NKJV "who did not keep their proper domain"
NRSV "who did not keep their own position"
TEV "who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority"
NJB "who did not keep to the authority they had"

There is a play on the tense of the verb "keep" in Jude 1:6. The angels did not keep their place (aorist active participle) so God has kept them in a place of imprisonment until judgment day (perfect active indicative). Those angels who violated God's will faced both temporal and eschatological judgment, just as the rebels of Israel during the wilderness wandering period and the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.

NASB "but abandoned their proper abode"
NKJV "but left their own habitation"
NRSV "but left their proper dwelling"
TEV "but abandoned their own dwelling place"
NJB "but left their appointed sphere"

These angels left (aorist active participle) their heavenly domain and went to another (earth). This fits the angelic interpretation of Gen 6:1-4 very well. This act was a willful rejection of God's will and authority.

▣ "in eternal bonds" This is literally "chains." Chains are used on angels in I Enoch and Satan is bound with a "great chain" in Rev20:1-2. The term "eternal" may mean "powerful," "adequate," "sure," not literally eternal, because these angels are only held until judgment day, when other means of incarceration shall be used (cf. Rev20:10; Rev20:14-15). The point is, some are imprisoned now, so as to control their evil activities.

▣ "under darkness" The term Tartarus (not used in Jude, but present in the 2Pe2:4 parallel) was used in Greek mythology for the holding place of the Titans, the half divine, half human giants. This fits the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6. I Enoch describes the new abode of these rebellious angels (cf. I Enoch 10:5,12) as eternal darkness. How different from heavenly brilliance (glory). The rabbis divided Sheol into "Paradise" (for the righteous) and Tartarus (for the wicked). The term "abyss" (cf. Luk8:31, Rev9:1; Rev11:7; Rev20:3) is synonymous with the metaphors of darkness used in Jud1:13 b
.
▣ "the great day" This is another way of referring to Judgment Day (cf. Mat25:31-46; Rev_20:11-15), the day when God will hold all conscious creation responsible for the gift of life (cf. Php 2:10-11; Isa 45:23; Rom 14:10-12).
Jude 1:7 "Sodom and Gomorrah" This is the third OT example of rebellion that involved sexual activities outside of God's revealed plan of marriage
1. the Canaanite fertility worship at Shittim (cf. Numbers 25)
2. the attempt by angels to mix the orders of creation (cf. Gen 6:1-4; 2Pe 2:4)
3. the homosexual activity of Sodom and Gomorrah toward angels (cf. Genesis 19; 2Pe 2:6)

From Dr Utley Bible Study Commentary
How folks can say Genesis chapter six phrase reference only to sons of Seth or human leaders must deny the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of bible text...

Again, if folks want to hide their head in the sand - please do so.

If angels can't have direct sexual intercourse with women, which I agree as well, some of them are certainly intelligent enough to mess with human DNA, use artificial insemination, on women too. The ancient Hebrew, again, used in Torah had roughly 8,200 to 8,500 words in its vocabulary compared to English over 350,000 words and growing.

The ancient mind did not have words to express what went on in Gen 6 other than that certain woman became pregnant and no words to describe how this was accomplished other than sexual means. However, the sexual means, used in a vocabulary of 8500 words can express more than one meaning.

Look at dreaded Book of Jasher 4:17-18, "And every man made unto himself a god, and they robbed and plundered every man his neighbor as well as his relative, and they corrupted the earth, and the earth was filled with violence.

And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals."


Note, when in ancient times when one makes themselves a god/idol, that god become their judge – governor they agree to follow, their ways, decrees, guidance, judgments.

This makes sense in the light of the bible verses cited above and in Enoch 6 and 7 that the Judges mentioned in Jasher are the fallen watchers who taught sorcery/divination to humanity (were indeed fallen angels) while the rulers were key human leaders in the community of men of both Seth and Cain’s line ie sons of Adam. - Who in exchange for secret knowledge gave certain childbearing women, by force, to the fallen angels and learned the craft of mixing one species with another.

Now look at this dreaded book God inspired to be quoted int he bible and PLEASE GET OFF - THE KICK NOT CANNON KICK - I KNOW THAT AS DO OTHERS - D-A-N-G IT = GROW UP... God can reference what he likes to reference from and maybe he is trying to tell people something and test for pride in the meantime

Enoch 6:1 -4 And it came to pass, when the sons of men had increased, that in those days there were born to them fair and beautiful daughters. 2 And the angels, the sons of heaven, saw them and desired them. And they said to one another: ‘Come, let us choose for ourselves wives from the children of men, and let us beget for ourselves children.’

6:3 And Shemihaza, who was their leader, said to them: ‘I fear that you may not wish this deed to be done, and [that] I alone will pay for this great sin.’

6:4 And they all answered him and said: ‘Let us all swear an oath, and bind one another with curses not to alter this plan, but to carry out this plan effectively.’ …

Enoch 7:2-6, And they (the human women) became pregnant and bore large giants… 7:3 These devoured all the toil of men, until men were unable to sustain them. 7:4 And the giants turned against them in order to devour men.

7:5 And they began to sin against birds, and against animals, and against reptiles and against fish, and they devoured one another’s flesh and drank the blood from it. 7:6 Then the earth complained about the lawless ones.


Next regarding the rulers: in Jasher 4:16 I repeat again: This makes sense in the light of the bible verses cited above and in Enoch 6 and 7 that the Judges mentioned in Jasher who taught sorcery/divination to humanity were fallen angels while the rulers were key leaders in the community of men of both Seth and Cain’s line ie sons of Adam. Who in exchange for secret knowledge gave certain childbearing women by force to the fallen angels and learned the craft of mixing one species with another.

Lastly, Jesus said "as in the days of Noah" in Luke 17:26,27, and Matthew 24:37,38,39 concerning an identifying mark to note how to identify how close it will be before He comes to a specific generation. What to look for.

But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Mat 24:37 NKJV

As did Peter in 1 Peter 3:20, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. NKJV

Let's put the pieces together:

Do we have Genetic manipulation going on these days or not where one mixes a jellyfish DNA with Rabbit DNA?

What of GMO’s in food?

What of making designer babies using mixed and synthetic DNA?

Is this going on today and what are the advances in DNA research currently as mentioned in medical science?

What of Robotics and the AI – is there a bot named Sophia with AI – today?

Is there a huge demand for both male and female sex robots with AI?


Common on now, what have some programmers warned about the AI and AI in robots - about how the AI programs itself and it appears like something else actually enters the AI, yet they don’t know what it is ,or going on, so they shut it off while they still can.

Now, if you want to hold to your pet theory that Gen 6 only refers to sons of Seth or Humans as the sons of God, go ahead and deny the evidence all that is going on all around us all - right now. Go ahead...

Personally, I don’t care if you do. You have that free moral right. It is not an essential doctrine and we can disagree on this matter.

But wake the h e double tooth picks up….

Get your spiritual house in order. Pray to the Lord to be found worthy to escape these things and to stand before him as Jesus said to do - Luke 21:36 - what does that hurt?

Being counted worthy simply means – get your soul- broken heart healed, preach good news to those crushed, help set people free from repeating acts that hold them captive, and set those bound in prison of their minds free with the Holy Spirit inside you by learning to livie the Isaiah 61:1,2,3,4 ways …

The rest is up to you… hold on to pride, scoff and mock me all you want too - but to what end?

How is such mocking and scoffing is really a good reflection of the Isaiah 61:1-4 way or a ‘fruit of the Spirit’ Christian response? I don't care, I forgive you all... pride does indeed go before a fall anyways...

There have always been dark times but in the beginnings of the last days – its gets darker, apostasy gets in church gets worse and worse, people remain blind, think all will go on as before – nothing has changed despite the evidence of the days of Noah happening… yawn go back to sleep... no need for oil in the lamp...

As for me, I am getting my lifer in order, ready to enter the ark of Christ while other folks simply choose to scoff, mock and debate Sethite / Human only sons of God is meant in Gen 6 despite all the evidence in the bible and supporting references God inspired the writers of the bible to include for a reason.

Isaiah 28:10,11,12,13 is indeed true….
-
-
-
All scripture quotes from the NKJV
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#185

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue May 15, 2018 9:56 am

Deut 32:8, When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, When He separated the sons of Adam, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel. NKJV
There is a problem with this verse.
This refers to the Tower of Babel incident and there was NO Israel at the time.

The oldest texts say:
English Standard Version
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

IF this event refers to the Tower of Babel then in no way can it be reference the children of Israel when there was NO Israel.

This is in line with the view in Daniel and Paul that the Nations of the world are under the influence of divine beings ( The prince of Persia in Daniel for example, Paul's "principalities and powers" and spiritual forces of evil in heavenly realms).

Ephesians 3:10–11
Ephesians 6:12

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 19903
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino
Has liked: 173 times
Been liked: 958 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#186

Post by RickD » Tue May 15, 2018 10:21 am

B.W. wrote:
How is such mocking and scoffing is really a good reflection of the Isaiah 61:1-4 way or a ‘fruit of the Spirit’ Christian response? I don't care, I forgive you all... pride does indeed go before a fall anyways...
Says the one who mocks in his post. :lol:

B.W., don't take it personally. You are mocked, because you are loved!

You are like the mentally challenged brother that we tease, to make him stronger. :lol:

And for the love of all that is good, I'm joking.

I can't speak for anyone else, but even those here that I disagree with, and tease, I do it out of love. You are all my Brothers in Christ*.


*Except for those with fruitcake theologies. :mrgreen:
These users liked this post by RickD:
Philip (Tue May 15, 2018 10:23 am)
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 17 times
Been liked: 97 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#187

Post by DBowling » Tue May 15, 2018 11:07 am

B. W. wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:56 am
NO WHERE - NO VERSE EVER SAYS SONS OF SETH WENT INTO THE DAUGHTERS OF CAIN OR ANY RULERS WENT INTO THE DAUGHTERS OF CAIN - GET IT NO VERSE DOES...

That is pure conjecture...
And Simirlarly...
NO WHERE - NO VERSE EVER SAYS ANGELS WENT INTO THE DAUGHTERS OF MEN - GET IT NO VERSE DOES...
That is pure conjecture...
You have evidence that God called humanity - the sons of Adam - after the fall - period... and it is not until the advent of the indwelling Holy Spirit that it was possible to become adopted into the household of God through the New Birth by the work of Jesus Christ...that is solid scriptural points without any scripture twisting.
You are factually wrong...
Deut 14:1-2 directly contradicts your assertion
"You are the children of the Lord your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead, 2 for you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession."
Job 38:4-7 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,...

...7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?


No Human beings were around when God laid the foundations of the earth - no sons of Seth, No sons of men period...

Sons of God refer to angelic beings...period
That is partially correct...
Yes, the book of Job does refer to angels as "sons of God"

You are incorrect in the assertion that non angelic beings (ie humans) are never referred to as "sons of God" prior to the time of Jesus... as Luke 3:38 and Deut 14:1-2 demonstrate
Further evidence regrading how even the apostles understood the sons of God in Gen 6 were not men you have Peter says this in direct reference to Noah:

Peter 2:4,5, For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly... NKJV

Next you have the book of Jude say things like this:

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day... NKJV
Neither Peter or Jude identify the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 as angels.
And neither Peter or Jude claim that angels procreated with or married humans.
Then Jude inspired by God quotes the dreaded book of Enoch....

Jude 1:14-15 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." NKJV
Jude's inspired quote says absolutely nothing about angels either procreating with or marrying humans.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 19903
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino
Has liked: 173 times
Been liked: 958 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#188

Post by RickD » Tue May 15, 2018 11:29 am

"There is no biblical basis for arguing that sons of God refers to humans", says the guy who's arguing a DNA manipulation theory with an abundance of biblical backing! :lol:
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
BavarianWheels
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:09 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#189

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue May 15, 2018 12:23 pm

B. W. wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:56 am
But wake the h e double tooth picks up….
I always have heard this, not as double tooth picks, but as "double hockey sticks".

Either way, it works.
.
.

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 17 times
Been liked: 97 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#190

Post by DBowling » Tue May 15, 2018 1:46 pm

Let me take a shot at some of these...
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:07 am
Please explain, from the bible, what specific sin the angles that were imprisoned were guilt of?
According to Jude 1:6 the angels are imprisoned because:
- they did not keep their proper domain
- they left their own abode
Please show me were and when, in the bible, God says that the Sons of God LOSE/ have lost their "sonship"?
In John 8 Jesus contrasts being a child of God with being a child of the Devil
This shows that according to Jesus, the Devil (fallen Lucifer) is no longer considered a child of God.
Please show me where, in the bible, it is was a sin for humans ( whatever their lineage) to marry?
I'd say 2 Corinthians 6:14 is good verse for believers today.

Here are some OT verses that address the same principle
Deuteronomy 7:3-4
Judges 3:5-6
And then we have the specific examples of Sampson (Judges 14) and Solomon (1 Kings 11)
Genesis 6 states, explicitly, that God was saddend and that He put a limit on the life of Man because of the daughters of men and the sons of god marrying, why?
My undogmatic personal opinion is that was a result of the "sons of God" (with average life spans of 800-900 years) intermarrying with the daughters of men (with average life spans of 30-40 years)

Please explain why the early texts, including the ones the apostles and first generations of Christian uses, state that the Nephilim were giants?
It could be because they might have been taller than the average person

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 17 times
Been liked: 97 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#191

Post by DBowling » Wed May 16, 2018 3:25 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:56 am
Deut 32:8, When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, When He separated the sons of Adam, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel. NKJV
There is a problem with this verse.
This refers to the Tower of Babel incident and there was NO Israel at the time.

The oldest texts say:
English Standard Version
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

IF this event refers to the Tower of Babel then in no way can it be reference the children of Israel when there was NO Israel.
Moses wrote Deuteronomy after the children of Israel came out of Egypt right before he died. So the dividing of the nations in Genesis 10 according to the seventy sons of Noah and the seventy children of Jacob/Israel going into Egypt (Exodus 1:1-5) were both history when Moses wrote Deuteronomy.

The number of sons of Noah in Genesis 10 does match the number of the sons of Israel who went into Egypt in Exodus 1:5 at seventy. But I am unaware of any corresponding Scriptural match between the seventy nations in Genesis 10 and the number of angels which exceeds "thousands upon thousands" (Hebrews 12:22).

The NKJV translation of Deut 32:8 did intrigue me though. In this translation the seventy nations of Genesis 10 are specifically identified as sons of Adam. So it appears that in Deut 32:8 Moses is drawing a correlation between the 70 descendants of Adam in Genesis 10 and the seventy descendants of Jacob in Exodus 1:5.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#192

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed May 16, 2018 9:36 am

Moses wrote Deuteronomy after the children of Israel came out of Egypt right before he died. So the dividing of the nations in Genesis 10 according to the seventy sons of Noah and the seventy children of Jacob/Israel going into Egypt (Exodus 1:1-5) were both history when Moses wrote Deuteronomy.

The number of sons of Noah in Genesis 10 does match the number of the sons of Israel who went into Egypt in Exodus 1:5 at seventy. But I am unaware of any corresponding Scriptural match between the seventy nations in Genesis 10 and the number of angels which exceeds "thousands upon thousands" (Hebrews 12:22).

The NKJV translation of Deut 32:8 did intrigue me though. In this translation the seventy nations of Genesis 10 are specifically identified as sons of Adam. So it appears that in Deut 32:8 Moses is drawing a correlation between the 70 descendants of Adam in Genesis 10 and the seventy descendants of Jacob in Exodus 1:5.
So, even though Israel did NOT exist at the time of the events in Genesis 10 and 11, you are saying that Moses viewed that division as the sons of Israel?
Even though the oldest writings write "Sons of God" and not "sons of Israel?
Fair enough, Moses could have simply associated them as such.


How are we to read the Prince of Persia as a divine/angelic being in Daniel then?
Why would it appear to be stating that Perisa had a divine being associated to it?
And Paul's statements in Ephesians?

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 17 times
Been liked: 97 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#193

Post by DBowling » Wed May 16, 2018 11:51 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:36 am
Moses wrote Deuteronomy after the children of Israel came out of Egypt right before he died. So the dividing of the nations in Genesis 10 according to the seventy sons of Noah and the seventy children of Jacob/Israel going into Egypt (Exodus 1:1-5) were both history when Moses wrote Deuteronomy.

The number of sons of Noah in Genesis 10 does match the number of the sons of Israel who went into Egypt in Exodus 1:5 at seventy. But I am unaware of any corresponding Scriptural match between the seventy nations in Genesis 10 and the number of angels which exceeds "thousands upon thousands" (Hebrews 12:22).

The NKJV translation of Deut 32:8 did intrigue me though. In this translation the seventy nations of Genesis 10 are specifically identified as sons of Adam. So it appears that in Deut 32:8 Moses is drawing a correlation between the 70 descendants of Adam in Genesis 10 and the seventy descendants of Jacob in Exodus 1:5.
So, even though Israel did NOT exist at the time of the events in Genesis 10 and 11, you are saying that Moses viewed that division as the sons of Israel?
I don't think Moses (in Deuut 32:8) is implying any kind of causality between the seventy nations of Genesis 10 and the seventy sons of Jacob in Exodus 1:5.
I think that Moses is saying that the number of the nations of Genesis 10 corresponds to the number of the sons of Jacob.

Even though the oldest writings write "Sons of God" and not "sons of Israel?
Textual criticism of Deut 32:8 is not terribly straightforward.
I think the following argument can legitimately be made.
It is possible that different versions of Deut 32:8 existed prior to any extant manuscripts. And it is entirely possible that some of those manuscripts said "sons of God" and some said "sons of Israel".
But I don't see that as a problem, because in Deut 14:1-2 Moses equates the children of Israel with "sons of the Lord your God", which means that within the context of the writings of Moses the terms "sons of Israel" and "sons of God" are interchangeable... (kind of like "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" in the Gospels).
How are we to read the Prince of Persia as a divine/angelic being in Daniel then?
Why would it appear to be stating that Perisa had a divine being associated to it?
I agree that the Prince of Persia in Daniel is referring to an angelic being, but not a "son of God" because the Prince of Persia appears to be a fallen angel.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#194

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri May 18, 2018 9:57 am

I agree that the Prince of Persia in Daniel is referring to an angelic being, but not a "son of God" because the Prince of Persia appears to be a fallen angel
.
I agree that the being called the Prince of Persia was a fallen angel ( rebelling against God's messenger Gabriel) BUT that he is referred to in the same (prince) as Michael, one of the chief princes, kind of implies that just because the being rebelled, doesn't mean he has lost "status".

My point is that I don't know if we can hold the view that upon rebelling, divine beings lose their status as sons of God, especially in the OT.

Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 6895
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 291 times
Been liked: 534 times

Re: Nephilim -Mark 12:25

#195

Post by Philip » Fri May 18, 2018 10:04 am

Paul: I don't know if we can hold the view that upon rebelling, divine beings lose their status as sons of God

All through Scripture, there is a contrast of those whom are God's children, and those who clearly are not. I can't imagine God considering demons his sons - not in any way.

Post Reply