The Free Will Thing

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ultimate777
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The Free Will Thing

#1

Post by ultimate777 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:17 am

I suspect you are going to be tempted to divert the question. YIELD NOT TO TEMPTATION!
I'm not concerning myself with whether what I talk about is possible, just desirable, capisce?

Suppose you had the opportunity to never want to do anything that would cost you your immortal soul, would you take it?

I would in a New York minute, consider what's at stake.

Anything wrong with that?

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Re: The Free Will Thing

#2

Post by Mallz » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:39 am

I'd take that deal in a second even if I was going to hell, and I'd still love Him.

Impeccability can't come soon enough ;) (we'll get that with our new bodies).

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Re: The Free Will Thing

#3

Post by ultimate777 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:21 pm

Presumably if you took the deal, salvation is guaranteed.

And what do you mean by impeccability, that's a new one on me.

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Re: The Free Will Thing

#4

Post by Mallz » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:45 pm

I was getting into the spirit of the fantasy of the thread :ebiggrin:

Impeccability is being unable to sin. You still have the free will to choose, but you never would. Kind of like trying to kill yourself by holding your breath. God is impeccable. In the future, after the resurrection, we will be impeccable, too.

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Re: The Free Will Thing

#5

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:00 pm

Mallz wrote:I'd take that deal in a second even if I was going to hell, and I'd still love Him.

Impeccability can't come soon enough ;) (we'll get that with our new bodies).
What about the unregenerate sinner when they are resurrected?

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Re: The Free Will Thing

#6

Post by Mallz » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 am

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Mallz wrote:I'd take that deal in a second even if I was going to hell, and I'd still love Him.

Impeccability can't come soon enough ;) (we'll get that with our new bodies).
What about the unregenerate sinner when they are resurrected?
They get thrown into the lake of fire at their resurrection (the White Throne Judgement after the Millennium). Or are you asking something more?

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Re: The Free Will Thing

#7

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:22 pm

ultimate777 wrote:I suspect you are going to be tempted to divert the question. YIELD NOT TO TEMPTATION!
I'm not concerning myself with whether what I talk about is possible, just desirable, capisce?

Suppose you had the opportunity to never want to do anything that would cost you your immortal soul, would you take it?

I would in a New York minute, consider what's at stake.

Anything wrong with that?
I already don't want to do things that go against God. Fact is though that I still do the many things I don't want to do. Thankfully this is where Christ comes in who imputes to me, and others who earnestly seek God out, a righteousness -- His own righteousness -- that I am unable to attain by my own works. Merely by accepting Christ into my heart, into my life, and placing my hope in His work alone.

I am stained by sin, but it is Judaism which first teaches that God can cleanse sin, that righteousness can be imputed via faith which is of the heart, rather than had only by keeping the law which often became hollow rituals resulting in persons who are white-washed tombs. God desires the former, not the latter. And, that is where their (the Jewish) prophecied Messiah, who we Christians identify as Christ, enters into the picture.

Given what I've just said here above, I'm perplexed by your question/s.
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Re: The Free Will Thing

#8

Post by Nicki » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:35 am

Kurieuo wrote:
ultimate777 wrote:I suspect you are going to be tempted to divert the question. YIELD NOT TO TEMPTATION!
I'm not concerning myself with whether what I talk about is possible, just desirable, capisce?

Suppose you had the opportunity to never want to do anything that would cost you your immortal soul, would you take it?

I would in a New York minute, consider what's at stake.

Anything wrong with that?
I already don't want to do things that go against God. Fact is though that I still do the many things I don't want to do. Thankfully this is where Christ comes in who imputes to me, and others who earnestly seek God out, a righteousness -- His own righteousness -- that I am unable to attain by my own works. Merely by accepting Christ into my heart, into my life, and placing my hope in His work alone.

I am stained by sin, but it is Judaism which first teaches that God can cleanse sin, that righteousness can be imputed via faith which is of the heart, rather than had only by keeping the law which often became hollow rituals resulting in persons who are white-washed tombs. God desires the former, not the latter. And, that is where their (the Jewish) prophecied Messiah, who we Christians identify as Christ, enters into the picture.

Given what I've just said here above, I'm perplexed by your question/s.
Before you do something sinful, you must have to want (to some degree) to do it, don't you? That's what temptation is - or there could be just a lack of self-control. I know you don't wake up in the morning and think, 'I want to sin today,' but why would you do something sinful if you didn't want in some way to do it?

I'm not sure about the phrase 'that would cost you your immortal soul' though. As you alluded to, we would have to have been perfect from a very young age to keep ourselves out of hell. No one's perfect - everyone needs Christ's righteousness and that's how we can have eternal life.

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Re: The Free Will Thing

#9

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:46 am

Nicki wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
ultimate777 wrote:I suspect you are going to be tempted to divert the question. YIELD NOT TO TEMPTATION!
I'm not concerning myself with whether what I talk about is possible, just desirable, capisce?

Suppose you had the opportunity to never want to do anything that would cost you your immortal soul, would you take it?

I would in a New York minute, consider what's at stake.

Anything wrong with that?
I already don't want to do things that go against God. Fact is though that I still do the many things I don't want to do. Thankfully this is where Christ comes in who imputes to me, and others who earnestly seek God out, a righteousness -- His own righteousness -- that I am unable to attain by my own works. Merely by accepting Christ into my heart, into my life, and placing my hope in His work alone.

I am stained by sin, but it is Judaism which first teaches that God can cleanse sin, that righteousness can be imputed via faith which is of the heart, rather than had only by keeping the law which often became hollow rituals resulting in persons who are white-washed tombs. God desires the former, not the latter. And, that is where their (the Jewish) prophecied Messiah, who we Christians identify as Christ, enters into the picture.

Given what I've just said here above, I'm perplexed by your question/s.
Before you do something sinful, you must have to want (to some degree) to do it, don't you? That's what temptation is - or there could be just a lack of self-control. I know you don't wake up in the morning and think, 'I want to sin today,' but why would you do something sinful if you didn't want in some way to do it?

I'm not sure about the phrase 'that would cost you your immortal soul' though. As you alluded to, we would have to have been perfect from a very young age to keep ourselves out of hell. No one's perfect - everyone needs Christ's righteousness and that's how we can have eternal life.
You do something sinful, not because "you" want to sin, but rather you are still in a tainted and corrupt body.

Scripture talks of our human nature, in particular, Paul carefully dissects the "I" in Scripture (read Romans 7:14-25). When we come to Christ, Scripture is clear that we no longer sin. Yet, our bodies are still corrupt and tainted by sin. Paul states when we sin, that it is no longer us who do so, but rather sin that dwells in us. (Rom 7:20)

While we struggle to bring our bodies into submission to who we are in Christ, nonetheless we are spotless and righteous and without sin for there can be no sin in Christ. 1 Cor 15:50 says out physical bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. 1 Cor 15:42-45 says these bodies we are in are weak amongst other things, but will be raised strong. We will be finally free to be ourselves in Christ than we here and now afflicted by the weakness of our sinful bodies.

Without this understanding of our identity, 1 John 3:5-6 would be very troubling. For we both would acknowledge that we struggle with sin in our bodies while here on Earth, and yet 1 John 3:5-6 is clear that in Christ there can be no sin. It says all who are in Christ do not sin and anyone who does sin isn't in Christ. Indeed 1 John 3:8 pushes the matter further to say anyone who sins is of the devil, and 1 John 3:9 says noone born of God practices sin.

So then, to be theologically correct in Christian terms of our identity in Christ, it is truer to say with Paul that "I" or "we" do not sin, while understanding that we are in a body that is tainted with sin. We and anyone who place their hope, their faith in Christ, Christ promises us eternal life which can only be had via Him imputing his own righteousness onto us such that we become truly purified. Our sins aren't merely covered, but rather we are made righteous and are spotless and pure.
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Re: The Free Will Thing

#10

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:21 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
ultimate777 wrote:I suspect you are going to be tempted to divert the question. YIELD NOT TO TEMPTATION!
I'm not concerning myself with whether what I talk about is possible, just desirable, capisce?

Suppose you had the opportunity to never want to do anything that would cost you your immortal soul, would you take it?

I would in a New York minute, consider what's at stake.

Anything wrong with that?
I already don't want to do things that go against God. Fact is though that I still do the many things I don't want to do. Thankfully this is where Christ comes in who imputes to me, and others who earnestly seek God out, a righteousness -- His own righteousness -- that I am unable to attain by my own works. Merely by accepting Christ into my heart, into my life, and placing my hope in His work alone.

I am stained by sin, but it is Judaism which first teaches that God can cleanse sin, that righteousness can be imputed via faith which is of the heart, rather than had only by keeping the law which often became hollow rituals resulting in persons who are white-washed tombs. God desires the former, not the latter. And, that is where their (the Jewish) prophecied Messiah, who we Christians identify as Christ, enters into the picture.

Given what I've just said here above, I'm perplexed by your question/s.
Good response.

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Re: The Free Will Thing

#11

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:25 pm

Mallz wrote:
thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Mallz wrote:I'd take that deal in a second even if I was going to hell, and I'd still love Him.

Impeccability can't come soon enough ;) (we'll get that with our new bodies).
What about the unregenerate sinner when they are resurrected?
They get thrown into the lake of fire at their resurrection (the White Throne Judgement after the Millennium). Or are you asking something more?
Yea, do they still sin after they are resurrected or not?
If they do, then that is sheer horrific, because hellfire will just increase and not cease but continue to increase for the rest of eternity.

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Re: The Free Will Thing

#12

Post by Mallz » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:56 pm

thatkidakayoungguy wrote: Yea, do they still sin after they are resurrected or not?
If they do, then that is sheer horrific, because hellfire will just increase and not cease but continue to increase for the rest of eternity.
Sin is more of a noun than a verb (we as people are the act of sin when chosen). People sin because they bring themselves to sin; their susceptibility to sin depends on the state of their heart. After death, judgement comes. Personally, I haven't found an answer to why people can't effect their eternal state after death, nor heard anything that explains it to my satisfaction. So, from faith on what has been revealed, I would say there is no change of eternal state after our judgement; it's not that 'they still sin after being resurrected', instead 'they' are resurrected into a sinful state in which they died into (didn't die into Christ). 'They' are no longer allowed to sin against others/anything and are left in their state of rejection and misery, their place determined by their 1) Lack of belief which brings eternal separation and 2) their actions in life that determine the quality of their eternal destiny. On the flip side, people who spend eternity with God have 1) Believed which is necessary to receive grace and 2) Have their eternal destination determined by their actions in life and growth in God.

FYI, my current reasoning tells me judgement is final for change in us because of what we are and are created to become, and you can't have the ever present influence of God and create the new creation He is working in us. Despite what many like to think, He didn't create this reality in completion, instead, it's a physical/spiritual womb to birth a new creation, His image.

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