Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

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SoCalExile
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#61

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:30 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
SoCalExile wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
When it says you shall die like men it is talking about at judgment.Nobody thinks that angels die like men do but they will after judgment.
That's reading into it....well the whole doctrine is reading into it.
No we are actually going by what the bible says it is you that could'nt even read what Jude clearly says and the Egyptians does'nt change it because these are fallen angels we are talking about and they are filled with immorality just like man or the Egyptians,but also the men of Sodom also and yes in a sexual way too going after strange flesh which would mean a woman or man would be strange flesh to an angel.
sigh...let's review THE CONTEXT:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.

Again, READ THE CONTEXT. This is about perverts in Jude's day being compared to the Egyptians, fallen angels, and Sodomites. This is NOT about angels and sex.
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SoCalExile
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#62

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:40 pm

B. W. wrote:Interesting subject since I am in process of writing a book on this topic...

My hypothesis contends that the fallen angels came and altered DNA and artificially impregnated women with corrupted DNA. In other words, they did not have sex with women. The Ancient Hebrew vocabulary of the Torah had roughly 8200 to 8500 words compare to modern English which has now over 350,000 words. With limited words to use, how would such language describe artificially impregnation other than by the same words used for sex? the results are the same, aren't they?

First, there IS a Hebrew word for it, "zera" which means physical "seed":
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 2233&t=KJV

Notice it's absent from Genesis 6, where the word for "generations" is "dowr", meaning all those living at a particular time, i.e. generation: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 1755&t=KJV

That there should put it to bed that this has anything to do with DNA.
Are there other histories and ancient texts that speak of this?

Yes, such as Enoch, Book of Jasher, and even Josephus for starters. Therefore look at the quote from Jasher 4:18...


What does verse 18 suggest to you? How can this happen other than by mixing DNA?

As for Jasher, it's an 18th century forgery: https://www.gotquestions.org/book-of-Jasher.html

Why you have to reference non-canon forgeries and pseudographical texts and not actually read what is in the Bible and actually believe it?

In our modern science abilities are we not mixing and genetically modifying food and animals? Look it up in science journals online and genetic research and what we are doing to our own food...

The answer is yes... Yet in the bible fallen angels could not do this as taught in many theological schools, yet, we can does not make sense in the light of other ancient text... and even Genesis chapter Six.

Jesus mentioned in Matt 24 and Luke 21 as was it in the days of Noah.. so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man... one taken - one left behind...

Genetic modification and the development of AI in robots - trans-humanism - is a new field of science... all interesting, isn't it?
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That's neither here nor there. BTW the "Days of Noah" have been here for decades. We follow celebrities and men of renown, our hearts are filled with violence in movies, music, video games, and we're enamored with war and warfare. It isn't the outward appearance that matters to God, it's the heart.
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SoCalExile
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#63

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:44 pm

B. W. wrote:The history of Sethite theory:

The Sethite theory basically states that in Genesis chapter six that Seth line was pure and the rest of Cain were not. The Sons of God meant human beings and not angelic host.

Does it stand up today - no - it is a recent addition and its history is traced back in the pre-middle ages. Before that, there it was taught that the sons of god refer to fallen angles. For Centuries from ancient rabbinical sources, ancient books quoted in the bible like Enoch and Jasher, the Septuagint translators, and later, the early-early church fathers taught the fallen angel view.

By the time of the middle ages and on up to the age of reason Genesis 6 became embarrassment to the church for the following reasons:

Angel worship had begun in the church through the Roman Catholic dogma of the 5th century etc and etc...

Celsus and Julian the Apostate had begun to use the Angel View to attack Christianity

Thus Christian apologetist, Julius Africanus, came up with the Sethite paradigm and this this was championed further by Cyril of Alexandria, and Augustine... etc and etc and even so today.

Fact is, it is a recent theory.

The crux issue was how could angels have sex with woman? Answer is simple - they cannot.

Genetic engineering was unknown as was artificial pregnanation to all the ancients and people did not factor in the limited words vocabulary in the Hebrew Torah either. Thus, in the magnificence of human intellectual superiority over the wisdom of fallen angels, the view came that angels had literal sex with human females when Jesus said this is impossible as angels are not given in marriage - no sex in heaven...

No one thought of any other way other than literal sex Between angels and women. Thus by the magnificence of human intellectual superiority it alone trumped the wisdom and intellect of that any angels could have and that only by direct sexual intercourse could what happen in Genesis 6 occurred.

Now, we know about DNA and our scientist seek to modify human, animal, and plant DNA before our eyes, yet, due the the magnificence of human theological intellectual superiority we deem angels, fallen ones as too stupid to modify DNA to corrupt humanity and thus disprove God as inapplicable of keeping his promise to mankind in Gen 1:26-29, and Gen 2:15 as well as stop the woman's seed from crushing the head of one particular fallen angel.

Bible tells us, we are lower than the angels, thus angels are not stupid and incapable of DNA manipulation in the past, present, or future till all things are fulfilled in bible prophecy...
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Genetic fallacy is ironic.

I can argue that it's in the bible, so it predates you. I can argue that there are several passages misunderstood by men, even scholars. Are you Catholic? Orthodox? The age of a doctrine doesn't determine it's validity. If that were the case, then Jesus should have ruled from the throne of David 2000 years ago.
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SoCalExile
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#64

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:46 pm

RickD wrote:Here's R.C. Sproul Jr.'s take on nephilim:
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/who-are-so ... genesis-6/
to be fair, RC Sproul can't get the gospel right so....

Also, it doesn't necessarily mean that there wasn't intermarrying before. There could have been descendants of Cain that were righteous by faith, and there may have been Sethites that were wicked, but the Bible is presenting us with a picture in this to illustrate another truth, and that is the mixing of the holy and profane.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#65

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:50 pm

SoCalExile wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
SoCalExile wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
When it says you shall die like men it is talking about at judgment.Nobody thinks that angels die like men do but they will after judgment.
That's reading into it....well the whole doctrine is reading into it.
No we are actually going by what the bible says it is you that could'nt even read what Jude clearly says and the Egyptians does'nt change it because these are fallen angels we are talking about and they are filled with immorality just like man or the Egyptians,but also the men of Sodom also and yes in a sexual way too going after strange flesh which would mean a woman or man would be strange flesh to an angel.
sigh...let's review THE CONTEXT:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.

Again, READ THE CONTEXT. This is about perverts in Jude's day being compared to the Egyptians, fallen angels, and Sodomites. This is NOT about angels and sex.


Thanks again for showing me to be right because anybody that reads these passages in Jude will clearly understand that the angels went after strange flesh. I still think you overlook that if you reject this interpretation then you have no biblical answer for many false god's that were worshipped as god's but with this interpretation we do.But I have already made my case as to the way I understand it.But I don't want to just keep repeating what I've already explained before.Let God be true and every man a liar.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

SoCalExile
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#66

Post by SoCalExile » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:57 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Thanks again for showing me to be right because anybody that reads these passages in Jude will clearly understand that the angels went after strange flesh. I still think you overlook that if you reject this interpretation then you have no biblical answer for many false god's that were worshipped as god's but with this interpretation we do.But I have already made my case as to the way I understand it.But I don't want to just keep repeating what I've already explained before.Let God be true and every man a liar.
Apparently not everybody, lol. And you're trying to argue motive instead of actually addressing the facts of my argument. The context of Jude, and Genesis 1-6, does not support what you are saying it does.

Here is a very good OT preacher explaining this passage from the passage:

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#67

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:18 am

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I am not really sure why we believe that angels in human form, which we note are typically indistinguishable from humans, can't have sex with human females on Earth because of what Jesus said they can't do in heaven in, obviously, angelic form.

That said, BW may be correct.

The only thing that we do get from the actual reading is that the Sons of God mated with human females and, withing the context of Genesis and the OT, The Sons of God are viewed as divine beings of some sort.

That the descendants of the Nephilim are viewed as having above average stature ( giants) is also stated.
What was the average height, btw? It doesn't say but anyone got ideas?
Average height for a man in the ANE ( Ancient Near east) was about 65" ( 5'-5") so a person at 6'-6" for example, would be a giant, even more so a 7ft'er.
We don't use the term anymore but a tall pro basketball player would be considered a giant ( someone far above average height).

We know that Goliath was very tall, so was the King Og.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#68

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:23 am

RickD wrote:Here's R.C. Sproul Jr.'s take on nephilim:
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/who-are-so ... genesis-6/
It's a given that there are multiple views on who they are, that isn't an issue.
Look, if all you had was Genesis, who would you think they were?
The OT that the NT writers had was the Septugaint and what does that tells us, what terms does it use?
While I don't think that we should select one text over another because it is older, I do think that we need to go with the text that is most consistent with theme and the text that was being used at the time.
Historically speaking, The sons of God were viewed and had always been understood to be, divine beings of some sort.
They were never thought to have been human until much much later.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#69

Post by SoCalExile » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:12 am

PaulSacramento wrote: Historically speaking, The sons of God were viewed and had always been understood to be, divine beings of some sort.
They were never thought to have been human until much much later.
Jesus and the Apostles disagree:

Mat 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.

Luk 20:36
“nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Rom 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Gal 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#70

Post by SoCalExile » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:17 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Average height for a man in the ANE ( Ancient Near east) was about 65" ( 5'-5") so a person at 6'-6" for example, would be a giant, even more so a 7ft'er.
We don't use the term anymore but a tall pro basketball player would be considered a giant ( someone far above average height).

We know that Goliath was very tall, so was the King Og.
Except Hebrew is a concrete language, and "nĕphiyl" does not always translate as one of large physical stature: in fact, the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon states it means "excellent, noble, skillful" or "falling on, attacking": https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 303&t=NKJV

Did you even research this or just accept what kooks like Michael Heiser say?
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#71

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:01 am

I am not going to debate this with you since you have made up your mind.
I will say this:
It is unacceptable to insult and slander anyone, even more so a respected scholar.
I suggest you stop it before we have to take action, understood?
Disagree all you want with any scholar you want, BUT you don't get to insult them and call them "kooks', at least not here, understood?

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#72

Post by Stu » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:33 am

SoCalExile wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Average height for a man in the ANE ( Ancient Near east) was about 65" ( 5'-5") so a person at 6'-6" for example, would be a giant, even more so a 7ft'er.
We don't use the term anymore but a tall pro basketball player would be considered a giant ( someone far above average height).

We know that Goliath was very tall, so was the King Og.
Except Hebrew is a concrete language, and "nĕphiyl" does not always translate as one of large physical stature: in fact, the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon states it means "excellent, noble, skillful" or "falling on, attacking": https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 303&t=NKJV

Did you even research this or just accept what kooks like Michael Heiser say?
Kooks :lol: You making a lot of friends on these boards hey.
How about you tone down the holier than thou, know it all attitude, relax and just debate. Your opinion is one of many here.

Also, how did giants come into being then if not through the mating of angels and earth women?
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#73

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:36 am

Another writers view:
https://bible.org/seriespage/7-sons-god ... nesis-61-8

Wiki on the term Nephilim, please note the foot notes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

the wiki article about the term:
Etymology[edit]
The Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon (1906) gives the meaning of nephilim as "giants", and holds that proposed etymologies of the word are "all very precarious.[4] Many suggested interpretations are based on the assumption that the word is a derivative of Hebrew verbal root n-ph-l (נ-פ-ל) "fall". Robert Baker Girdlestone[5] argued in 1871 the word comes from the Hiphil causative stem, implying that the nephilim are to be perceived as "those that cause others to fall down". Ronald Hendel states that it is a passive form "ones who have fallen", grammatically analogous to paqid "one who is appointed" (i.e., overseer), asir "one who is bound" (i.e., prisoner), etc.[6][7]

The majority of ancient biblical versions—including the Septuagint, Theodotion, Latin Vulgate, Samaritan Targum, Targum Onkelos, and Targum Neofiti—interpret the word to mean "giants".[8] Symmachus translates it as "the violent ones"[9][10][11] and Aquila's translation has been interpreted to mean either "the fallen ones"[9] or "the ones falling [upon their enemies]".[11][12]

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#74

Post by SoCalExile » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:38 am

PaulSacramento wrote:I am not going to debate this with you since you have made up your mind.
I will say this:
It is unacceptable to insult and slander anyone, even more so a respected scholar.
I suggest you stop it before we have to take action, understood?
Disagree all you want with any scholar you want, BUT you don't get to insult them and call them "kooks', at least not here, understood?
The guy makes his money by writing sensational books full of gnosis to gullible Christians - he doesn't get special protection because you like and follow him.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#75

Post by SoCalExile » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:40 am

Stu wrote: Kooks :lol: You making a lot of friends on these boards hey.
How about you tone down the holier than thou, know it all attitude, relax and just debate. Your opinion is one of many here.

Also, how did giants come into being then if not through the mating of angels and earth women?
Paul dished out the "holier than thou, know it all attitude" and he's having problems when it's dished back. Let him take it like a man and actually defend his position rather than his current methods.
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