Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#511

Post by DBowling » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:44 am

B. W. wrote:Greetings MY BAD TYPO do to recent illness this is what I meant to write in my last Post and I corrected it there
B. W. wrote:Please EVERYONE PLEASE GET IT THRU YOUR HEADS - NO - THESES ARE NOT NOT NOT THE SAME AS CANNON
Now that's more in line with what I would expect from BW. :)
Had several days of pain and severe breathing issues. Should have proof read before I posted... which I corrected and edited and deleted words by accident. Oh well - record set straight.
Sorry to hear about your health issues. I will keep you in my prayers.

In Christ

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#512

Post by B. W. » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:58 am

Sumerian mythical kings continued...

Here is a math rule: the divisibility test

Nine when multiplied by any number, the total sum when reduced and added together always equals 9

Example: 9x873=7857 next sum added together 7+8+5+7=27 and 2+7=9

What does this has to do with the Sumerian King List ?

Add up the total years of the reigns and you 5 of the kings numbers are reduce to 9 and the grand total of years each group ruled in a particular city also reduces back to 9.

From this you have 7 total numbers reduce to 9 and again - 9x7=72 and 7+2 equals what?

Why would the scribe do that on the Kings Tablet for the pre-flood kings?

Again, these are not literal years but rather Chaldean numeric (occultic) system revealing that these kings were not human but rather as the book of Enoch reveals - fallen angels.

There are seven nines and 7 head primordial beings in the Sumerian pantheon who ruled over others, in a military style hierarchy.
Sumerian King List
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section2/tr211.htm

After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug (A City with a patron deity called - Enki)

1-Alulim 8 sars (28,800 years) 2+8+8=18 and 1+8=9

2-Alalngar 10 sars (36,000 years) 3+6=9

These 2 kings; they ruled for 64800 years. 6+4+8=18 and 1+8=9
Then -City- Eridug fell and the kingship was taken to -city- Bad-tibira.
Note patron deity of that city was Lulal who was related to Isthar of the moon god triad. Isthar is known in the bible as the whore of Babylon in the Book of Revelation

3-En-men-lu-ana 12 sars (43,200 years) 4+3+2=9

4-En-men-gal-ana 8 sars (28,800 years) 2+8+8=18 and 1+8=9

5-Dumuzid 10 sars (36,000 years) 3+6=9

3 kings; they ruled for 108000 years. --- 1+8=9 ----
Then Bad-tibira fell and the kingship was taken to -city -Larag


6-En-sipad-zid-ana ruled there (from Larag) 8 sars (28,800 years) 2+8+8=18 and 1+8=9

1 king; he ruled for 28800 years. Then Larag fell and the kingship was taken to Zimbir.
In the city of Larag, the parton diety was Utu/Nergal/Ninurta. Just names to most of you but the three names are just one being. I will use the name Nergal. Nergal was used as a scapegoat and sentenced to the waste places - hell. He is known in Hebrew as the scapegoat mentioned in Lev 16:8,10 the word scapegoat is the name Azazel ... whom is mentioned in the book of Enoch who was made the scapegoat so the leader of the angelic rebellion could escape and cast into the deep earth waste places of sharp rocks.
Sumerian King List continues with these two kings whose total years do not reduce up to nine.
Sumerian King List
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section2/tr211.htm

7-In Zimbir, En-men-dur-ana ruled 5 sars and 5 ners (21,000 years) 2+1=3

1 king; he ruled for 21000 years. Then Zimbir fell and the kingship was taken to Curuppag.
The patron of Curuppag city was called Shuruppag and known as Ninlil or Lilith who was a consort with Enki.

8-In Curuppag Ubara-Tutu ruled 5 sars and 1 ner (18,600 years) 1+8+6=15 and 1+5=6 -- 1 king; he ruled for 18600 years.

In 5 cities 8 kings; they ruled for 241200 years. Then the flood swept over.
Used the Reduction matrix here 2+4+1+2=9
Now add up the sum totals of the years ruled in last two cities (21000+18600=39600)

Now reduce -- 3+9+6=18 and then again 1+8=9 adding the years equals 18 and then 9 when reduced…the number 18 explains what the number 9 is hiding in all this because the number 18 has a word definition assigned to it. The Chaldean numeric definition of 18 symbolic word definition means as follows:

The number 18. Is pictured as "a rayed moon from which drops of blood are falling; with some sort of Wolf seen below the moon catching the falling drops of blood in its opened mouth, while still lower a crab is seen hastening to join them."

It is symbolic of materialism striving to destroy the spiritual side of the nature. It generally associates a person with bitter quarrels, even family ones, also with war, social upheavals, revolutions; and in some cases it indicates making money and position thorough wars or by wars. It is associated with treachery, deception by others, also danger from the elements such as storms, danger from water, fires and chaos.

I write - Next please note also

The biblical based Hebrew meaning of 18 means: That which brings one into bondage, serfdom, slavery, to a variety of things. In the NT the man at the pool was there for 18 years with no one to place him in the water - the number 18 in the bible is most often associated with bondage/slavery of some type - that is how the meaning is derived.
The Chaldean numbers have differing meanings associated with them so back to its definition:

18 - in Chaldean numeric basic symbolic meaning matches two constellations:

The number 18. Is pictured as "a rayed moon from which drops of blood are falling; with some sort of dog/wolf beast seen below the moon catching the falling drops of blood in its opened mouths, while still lower a crab is seen hastening to join them."

The wolf constellation is known as Lupus: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupus_(constellation)

The wolf is associated as one of the Seven demons monsters of Chaldean pantheon - see...near bottom of page linked too

"The fifth is a furious Wolf, who knoweth not to flee..."

...and the constellation we call Cancer - a crab.
The Crab was also closely associated with an entrance to the underworld... Much the same is implied in Babylonian traditions where some magical texts even speak of using the influence of the Crab in rites designed to raise ghosts from the underworld and to make offerings to the dead. In the section on the Crab I propose that it has ultimately inherited these otherworldly traits, as well as its strong associations to rivers, from the older constellation of the Serpent.

Quoted from :http://www.skyscript.co.uk/babylonian_cancer.pdf
Next the number 18 means

It is symbolic of materialism striving to destroy the spiritual side of the nature. It generally associates a per-son with bitter quarrels, even family ones, also with war, social upheavals, revolutions; and in some cases it indicates making money and position thorough wars or by wars. It is associated with treachery, deception by others, also danger from the elements such as storms, danger from water, fires and chaos.

If you know the character traits of pagan gods - you will find the moon god pantheon in this - the Nanna and Ishtar triad as that is what they do... also note the city where some of them ruled:
These 2 kings; they ruled for 64800 years. 6+4+8=18 and 1+8=9
Then -City- Eridug fell and the kingship was taken to -city- Bad-tibira.
Note patron deity of that city was Lulal who was related to Isthar of the moon god triad. Isthar is known in the bible as the whore of Babylon in the Book of Revelation
In brief conclusions - the numbers used in the Kings list reveal the intent of these beings as well as using rites to raise ghost or demons out of hell.

Why is this important and relevant today?

In the occult world, they go back to these pagan fallen angels and seek to raise or spring from hell, Nergal by raising up a son of Nergal to finish what the number 18 implies.

In the bible - Book of Revelation - we see this...

Rev 11:7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.
Rev 13:2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
Rev 13:4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth—by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
Rev 13:15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
Rev 13:17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
Rev 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,

Rev 16:10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.
Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Bible verses from NKJV

Well folks, there is more to the Kings list than meets the eye...

It is a shame, that we in the body of Christ are so ignorant of the war in heaven against the principalities and powers and rulers of darkness that we cannot discern anything at all and instead waste time justifying paying no attention at all...

Jesus said as in the days of Noah for a reason...

In those days - secret knowledge was give to men in exchange for some of their women. Depravity increased.

I wish I knew how to post a photograph on this forum - I seem unable to do this but there is a picture of Sumerian deities standing by what they call the tree of life that looks very similar to Human DNA.

Hopefully you may see it in this link = https://www.pinterest.com/pin/530791506062152087/

Note pictures on this like of DNA
http://bigthink.com/philip-perry/human- ... ist-states

Well have a nice day :wave:
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Reedit - too much math and typos on a few numbers - see below do you see an interesting number

PS using the reduction method when you add up the SAR's of all the kings you have 8+10+ 12+8+10+ 8+ 5.5+5.1= 666

Now forget the decimal and reduce the 666 and what number do you get?

6+6+6=18 of course!

Why would a scribe do that on an ancient clay tablet where it is mathematically impossible that this is coincidental... in light of what 18 means in the Chaldean system explained above

After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug ...Then the flood swept over....
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#513

Post by B. W. » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:14 am

If you wonder why I do not source the Chaldean number meanings in above post - well - it is for your own protection...

To use as reference is one thing and another thing to be led astray by the Chaldean system.

Lord Jesus protect folks, in Jesus Name - amen...
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#514

Post by B. W. » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:15 am

+

I went back and corrected more typos and please note the Bolded areas in the last long post and notice the number 666 and how 6+6+6=18 and then 1+8=9

Notice the Chaldean word meaning for the number 18. That number keeps appearing in the math reduction system these ancient folks used in their Kings List. Along with their number meanings there are the star constellations associated along with definition of the number 18 (and other numbers) which also tell a story which matches the story line in Enoch cornering the fallen angels and one becoming a scapegoat for the rebellion.

Now notice this is found in The Wolf constellation that helps defines the number 18 in their system. According to Babylonian lore the wolf being offered up as a scapegoat sacrifice so someone in charge doesn't get caught. Then later, the one in charge promises to resurrect that wolf with all the forces (represented by the crab constellation ) mustered to finish the plan.

In Chaldean numbers the number 12 indicates a "the Sacrifice" or "the Victim" and foreshadows one being sacrificed for the plans or intrigues of others to cause much anxiety and suffering later on...

Now the last two kings on the kings list whose reigns do not reduce to 9 at first glance actually do if you add the total years each reigned and reduce as I have shown, the total equals 9 see below...

21000+18600=396 and 3+9+6=18 and 1+8=9 but look again - 3+9=12 and 12+6=18

You have the number 12 along with its meaning which matches the constellation of the wolf being sacrificed as so noted.

Then back to the number Chaldean 18 word meaning:

It is symbolic of materialism striving to destroy the spiritual side of the nature. It generally associates a person with bitter quarrels, even family ones, also with war, social upheavals, revolutions; and in some cases it indicates making money and position thorough wars or by wars. It is associated with treachery, deception by others, also danger from the elements such as storms, danger from water, fires and chaos.

Now re-read the verses from the book of Revelation I quoted above in long post and what do you see?

Answer: The end time battle when the forces and allies of darkness seek to raise Asezel/Nergal out of hell's prison or have a human son he could operate with - Nebo to help finish the deed to stop the 'seat of the devils power' from being crushed by the heal of the Messiah at the final battle. Book of Revelation mentions the Anti Christ and false prophet and worship a dragon... The kings list, in its use of numeric system and its own Chaldean number meanings is broadcasting the enemies plan/scheme from their point of view while the Hebrew number meaning system proves that impossible just as the bible broadcast.

Yep, as it was in the days of Noah...so shall be the coming of the Son of Man be...

Last- The Chaldean number nine is a hidden number which after working the math you find out what the intent of all the kings - fallen angels in the list - what their intent really is just as the bible in Isaiah 14 explains - exalt whose throne above whom?

They will fail!! Amen!

There is a lot more than this and I know it is confusing at first but take the time to digest it...
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#515

Post by RickD » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:05 am

Following Gnostic mysticism of the Book of Enoch, and now numerology...

The end times indeed.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
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St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

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Post by B. W. » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:55 am

Anyways...

If folks understood that there is a real enemy out there that came to earth just as the bible described in Revelation 12:3,4,9,10,11. The devil first drew his tail and threw down his chief minions to earth to complete the corruption of human kind to stop Jesus from coming into the world. Part of that event is described in Genesis 6:1-14.

Likewise, the enemy has their side of the story and they paint themselves as saviors of humanity freeing humanity of the shackles of tyranny of YHWH, whom they paint as a wicked dragon whom Negal/Azazel attempted to slay by enlightening mankind as the arrow/object to be used in that slaying so the leader of the angelic rebellion exalts his throne over God's.

Book of Enoch chapters 8,9,10 describe this event from God's perspective to set the record straight among fallen humanity.

In the Book of Enoch the name of one the fallen Angels is Azazel.

The name Azazel is used in the book of Leviticus 16 and translated scapegoat. In Enoch, he was sentenced to heart of the Earth (Matthew 25:41) along with others for that crime. In the Old Testament law - to cast a lot for Azazel as the scapegoat and led far-far into the wilderness, symbolizing something very profound. This act was fulfilled by Jesus and Barabbas. Barabbas was the leader of a rebellion whom the Jewish leaders of that era chose over Jesus to follow. Bar-Abbas means son of his father...symbolically son the head fallen leader just as the religious leaders of Jesus day were called in John 8:44.

The world chooses to follow the ways of the devil and Jesus came to break that power over us and succeeded. Amen.

In the occult world, they seek to speak to the fallen ones in exchange for forbidden knowledge. The type of knowledge is described in the book of Enoch as making war, seduction, enchantments, etc and etc.

The Chaldean numeric system used numbers in a simple code to convey messages. The Sumerian King Text uses the numbers in the years and Sars that these kings reigned for that purpose, especially how 5 king’s reigns reduce to 9, even the total years for all the kings reigns each reduce to nine and the last two king's reigns combined also reduce to nine and the very text describe them coming from heaven (note -Revelation 12:3,4) and then a flood... Genesis 6:1-20

I am not going to waste any more time showing you the Chaldean number system as there is no need. Just the fact that some sort of intelligence had these numbers listed the way they did speaks volumes. The story line all this points to is the perspective of the enemy whom the bible warns us to spiritually fight per Eph 6:10,11,12,13,14 etc.

The story line of the pagan false gods is like reading North Korean, Iranian, and Progressive leftist propaganda that the USA and Israel are the greatest evils in the world calling both the great and little Satans - the dragons, the serpents, etc. In the case of the fallen angels they paint God of the bible as the great enemy and oppressor.

Professors at Universities love to tout to naive young Christians that the ancient Sumerian text are older than the bible; thus, that the bible scribes just borrowed from these texts to make the world oppressed. So many young Christians leave the faith in droves.

How will you combat that? Answer is - you can't unless you use the tools and manuscripts God left for us for a reason that indeed combats this. Or you can hide behind Augustine's Sethite view or the leader view that answers nothing to those who will be hit with the latest pre-bible Sumerian older text is the best - can you?

Back to subject

In the Kings list, their plan is outlined in the numeric code and the star constellation used to refine the meaning of the numbers and such story line goes like this - for your ease of understanding describes: how there was a rebellion against God, to overthrow God, exalt their rule over God by helping mankind to achieve a golden age of paganism unfettered by God.

The scheme is mirrored in the story line Azazel and the pagan text as well. The scapegoat would fire the arrow/weapon used to overthrow God, be caught and punished for it with the promise that he and the fallen ones would be springed/escape from Hell at a future date to finish the deed by the chief of the rebellion. The ancient Canaanite, Sumerian, Greek/Roman, Scandinavian, European, Celtic, Hindu and yes, ancient Chinese religions all carry the same storyline - the names of the fallen ones always change to protect the guilty but knowing their characteristic - you can sort them out.

The seven Promordal beings - Abzu, Tiamat,Lahmu and Lahamu, Anshar, Kishar Mummu

are the same as the Seven gods who decree Anu, Enlil, Enki, Ninhursag, Ishtar, Nanna, Utu also known as Shamash

Who later synthesized into these beings Adad, Tumuzid/Tammuz, Enkimdu, Ereshkigal, Kingu, Geshtinanna, Lahar, Marduk, Nergal, Ninurta, Nebo etc and etc to Greek - Zeus, Athena, Apollo etc and etc...

So, in the light of or modern era along with the 'coexist movement' in our worldwide culture and inside our own churches to fuse with 'coexist' philosophy toward a golden age of paganism with a complaint church - the people of God cannot see the danger that faces humanity today.

This 'Coexist' idea a currently a popular bumper sticker and made beautiful by the arts, media, books, writings, glamour, seduction, and all manner of war-the same traits of Azazel taught to be accepted by humanity to reach a new golden age.

The Book of Revelation and the Prophets like Daniel warned about this. So did Apostles in their writings in our bibles warn of this too.

Yet, we want to ignore it and waste time arguing over Sumerian kings, Sethite view, or human leaders being mentioned or not in Genesis chapter six - well is amazing to me while the whole world slides into a justified paganism... using that paganism to bash and discredit the bible and ignore other ancient documents that can be used to combat the lies of paganism is simple baffling ...

Have a nice day...

More on Azazel in this brief...quoted from Wiki for mere simplicity
Azazel
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazel

In the Bible, the term is used thrice in the book of Leviticus 16, where two male goats were to be sacrificed to Yahweh and one of the two was selected by lot, for Yahweh is seen as speaking through the lots.[1] The next words are לַעֲזָאזֵל‎, "for Azazel". This goat was then cast out in the desert as part of Yom Kippur.

In older English versions such as the King James Version the word azazel is translated as "as a scapegoat", however in most modern English Bible translations it is represented as a name in the text: {{quotation|6 Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself and shall make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 Then he shall take the two goats and set them before the Lord at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel. 9 And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord and use it as a sin offering, 10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.|Leviticus 16:6-10, English Standard Version[2]

Later rabbis, interpreting la-azazel as azaz (rugged) and el (of God), take it as referring to the rugged and rough mountain cliff from which the goat was cast down

Dead Sea Scrolls
In the Dead Sea Scrolls the name Azazel occurs in the line 6 of 4Q203, The Book of Giants, which is a part of the Enochic literature found at Qumran.[8]

According to the Book of Enoch, which brings Azazel into connection with the Biblical story of the fall of the angels, located on Mount Hermon, a gathering-place of demons of old (Enoch xiii.; compare Brandt, "Die mandäische Religion," 1889, p. 38), Azazel is one of the leaders of the rebellious Watchers in the time preceding the Flood; he taught men the art of warfare, of making swords, knives, shields, and coats of mail, and women the art of deception by ornamenting the body, dyeing the hair, and painting the face and the eyebrows, and also revealed to the people the secrets of witchcraft and corrupted their manners, leading them into wickedness and impurity until at last he was, at Yahweh's command, bound hand and foot by the archangel Raphael and chained to the rough and jagged rocks of [Ha] Dudael (= Beth Ḥadudo), where he is to abide in utter darkness until the great Day of Judgment, when he will be cast into the fire to be consumed forever (Enoch viii. 1, ix. 6, x. 4–6, liv. 5, lxxxviii. 1; see Geiger, "Jüd. Zeit." 1864, pp. 196–204).

In Greek Septuagint and later translations[edit]
The translators of the Greek Septuagint understood the Hebrew term as meaning the sent away, and read: "8and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat (Greek apopompaio dat.).

9And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord, and offer it as a sin offering; 10but the goat on which the lot of the sent away one fell shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away (Greek eis ten apopompen acc.) into the wilderness."
Following the Septuagint, the Latin Vulgate,[9] Martin Luther[10] and the King James Version also give readings such as Young's Literal Translation: "And Aaron hath given lots over the two goats, one lot for Jehovah, and one lot for a goat of departure".

According to the Peshitta, Azazel is rendered Za-za-e'il (the strong one against/of God), as in Qumran fragment 4Q180.[11]
People can choose to ignore all this if they wish, mock, poke fun, whatever, I really do not care what anyone thinks. People in the church are broken, hurt, and many seek to find significance by being great intellects or mockers.

So if you are satisfied with the way the world is going and all is well - despite the evidence to the contrary in your life, families life, and churches life, then please go in peace. Enjoy your life in Laodicea, Ephesus, Sardis, Pergamum, and Thyatira.

Nothing to see, move along...

AS for me, I will not be guilty of hiding what I have found and burying it the sand and instaead to chose the way the bible tells of -

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them....

At least I am faithful to that call despite what folks think.

So, If you heed the warnings, gain further insights into the end time prophecies and grow stronger in the Lord Jesus Christ by what was shared and not toss out the ancient writings God sent to use to combat paganism ascending - then praise God!

Book of Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees, Book of Giants and the enemies Kings List are not Gnostic nor mystical. Sad that folks think that.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#517

Post by DBowling » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:17 am

B. W. wrote: Book of Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees, Book of Giants and the enemies Kings List are not Gnostic nor mystical. Sad that folks think that.
Do you agree that Enoch 60:1 and Enoch 107:2 directly contradict the Scriptural narrative of the historical Enoch found in Genesis 5:23-24?

Do you have any evidence that the book of Enoch existed prior to 300 BC?

Why should a person who accepts the Scriptural record as truth embrace a theory based on a document that directly contradicts the Scriptural record regarding the historical Enoch, and that was written 4000 years after the time of the historical Enoch?

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#518

Post by Philip » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:03 pm

So, does Jude 1 quote The Book of Enoch and infer it to be inspired as is Scripture?

OK, in the NT, Jude 1:14-15 says this about Enoch: “It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Enoch 1:19 says: “And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgment upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

So, what do we know about when Enoch 1 was put in its first-discovered version of the last, completed volume? The Book of Enoch is actually five different books, each written at different times, and later edited – with what we know today being completed sometime before A.D. 100. We not only don't know precisely who wrote, edited or finalized these, but as for manuscript evidence, the oldest version that we have of the books are mere fragments, found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls. And the oldest we have is a mid-to-late 15th century copy of the completed work. So, all we truly know is that a finalized, edited form of The Book of Enoch was completed by the end of the first century. Jude 1 was likely completed by around 65 A.D. This means we can't know for certain that the correlation between Enoch 1 and Jude 1 proves Enoch 1 was completed FAR before pre-first century/pre-Jude 1 period.

Yes, it SEEMS that Jude 1 is quoting a much older Enoch 1. But we cannot know that for certain – meaning, we should treat our conclusions with extreme caution. There is a logic concept of rationality which asserts that conclusions should be drawn ONLY by what the evidence makes clear, and that going beyond what can be known should be considered stretching the evidence to fit one's desires beyond knowable facts. Jude 1, nor any NT passage, references a “Book of Enoch” or in any way validates some such work of literature.

The Bible notes of the historical Enoch: He was the GGGG-grandson of Adam, fathered Methuselah, and that he walked faithfully with God and that God showed him favor in taking him away miraculously – Hebrews 11 says Enoch pleased God and was rewarded by being taken without experiencing death.

The Jude passage relates that Enoch faithfully represented God against unGodliness and that he had been given an original, prophetic warning message by God. It may be that, Jude, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, explained what Enoch's role and message had originally been. We surely don't KNOW that Jude merely quotes (a supposedly earlier written) Enoch 1. The Apostle Paul quoted Jesus - in Acts 20:35 – which is nowhere else recorded in the NT – perhaps, similarly, as an inspired message of made known by the Holy Spirit. And just as Moses could not have known various aspects of the Creation passages in Genesis. So, we just can't PROVE that Jude’s text was taken from the “Book of Enoch," as that's an assumption. Just because it fits a particular narrative, doesn't make it so.

Some believe that it might be that there were ancient, oral-based traditions from the actual days of Enoch, and that along with the influence of the NT Book of Jude, these were merged by writers into what became The Book of Enoch passages. The time span correlations of the last edited version of The Book of Enoch and the writing of Jude make this entirely possible. But let's say Jude DID quote from Enoch 1 – that still wouldn't prove that Enoch 1 was equally inspired by God, as the Apostle Paul also was known to quote from various Greek writers, to make a specific points. Does that mean Paul would have likewise endorsed EVERYTHING else such philosophers had also written or asserted as being the truth??? Hardly! And the original warning by Enoch during the time of Genesis, in the OT, made known in Jude 14, works together with the Jude passage so as to establish God's prophetic message and warning – they don't require another validation (from the Book of Enoch) - especially as we can't definitively know whether it was inspired. The Genesis and Jude passages are more than sufficient to emphasize the prophetic warning.



I also find it interesting, that the Book of Enoch was never listed as part of the Hebrew Masoretic Texts, compiled between A.D. 500 and 900, by Jewish scribes, perhaps the most encompassing assemblage of the pre-NT Jewish canon. As for the Church, the only segment endorsing Enoch as canonical is the Ethiopic Canon of the Coptic Church – and even THAT didn't occur until the 13th century A.D.

I just see no facts to suggest these two interesting versions' correlation means we should consider a compilation of writings by unknown (not validated by God, His prophets or apostles) writers, and not even knowing when the FINAL edits to the Book of Enoch were made, as being equal or as trustworthy as Scripture. The Dead Sea fragments of the Book of Enoch don't tell us what edits or additions may have been made around the time of the writing of the Book of Jude. It doesn't mean there is not truth in the Book of Enoch, or that it doesn't contain substantially accurate oral traditions, or in various portions. But we just don't know what ELSE was merged together, nor by whom, nor how accurate it is, either individually or collectively. Two versions' short correlation in no way should be seen as validation of the entire Book of Enoch as being trustworthy or as inspired by God. We just can't know that! Now, it certainly IS possible that Jude WAS quoting Enoch 1 and that, per that specific passage (only), Enoch 1 is correct. But it doesn't mean ALL of the Book of Enoch was correct, nor that it was likewise inspired. So when we start gluing together uncertain ancient books with the truths of Scripture, without validation of who wrote and edited them, nor knowing any details – that's very dangerous. And isn't that how some of the major false works in history have been used (like the Book of Mormon, the Quran)? These start with Truth (the Bible), and then tack on it the writings of men, so as to supposedly validate the added man-made deceptions as being equal to what (Scripture) they have been tacked onto.

Lastly, IF The Book of Enoch was inspired and so important, why don't we have any apostle or Jesus bringing attention to it as a book inspired by God? Jude references ONE short passage, but he doesn't say anything about it as being inspired, as bing Scriptural, or beyond the short point that is made. So anyone asserting it to be on a level with Scripture, or that it is entirely trustworthy - they have no reason to do so. And if we're going to assert, based upon things that cannot be known, that the Book of Enoch is inspired or entirely trustworthy - well, look at the books of the Apocrypha - as SOME of what they say is true and correct, and yet, many passages in them are clearly false and historically inaccurate. Same deal, same danger!

We just shouldn't assume what cannot be validated as true, actually is! Not to mention, one need to consider the entire Book of Enoch as true, just because one short passage was quoted to make a specific point. Nuances matter, and depending upon how they are considered, can change whether one asserts actual truth, or whether they've merely cherry-picked whatever they need to fit a particular narrative, that well be false.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#519

Post by B. W. » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:58 am

DBowling wrote:
B. W. wrote: Book of Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees, Book of Giants and the enemies Kings List are not Gnostic nor mystical. Sad that folks think that.
Do you agree that Enoch 60:1 and Enoch 107:2 directly contradict the Scriptural narrative of the historical Enoch found in Genesis 5:23-24?

Do you have any evidence that the book of Enoch existed prior to 300 BC?

Why should a person who accepts the Scriptural record as truth embrace a theory based on a document that directly contradicts the Scriptural record regarding the historical Enoch, and that was written 4000 years after the time of the historical Enoch?
Dead sea scroll found fragments of 1 Enoch:

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/trans6.html

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/scr3.html

Which deal with the topic at hand - so yes there are fragments of text that date back to the BC time period way before 300 AD.

Now, let us apply your same logic to all the NT cannon of Scripture...most surviving NT text date to around 300+ AD time period. And small fragments that go back to 1 AD era have been found as well but are not complete text - so should we toss out the bible due to the majority of text used in the NT as not apropo either all because of the lack of complete earlier text written before 300 AD as you say about Enoch?

Even some earlier text of the NT and OT were corrupted by Gnosticism and there have been found almost complete text of these so should we must discount the cannon of scripture on account of these?

Fact is, there is a fragment found in the dead sea scrolls that support Enoch and Genesis 6 as for later version such as II Enoch and III Enoch yes they were written later or could have been altered. That is why the book is not cannon.

There is are ancient historical records that will answers the big questions that will soon come to this from by atheist, skeptics, and deniers of god, by occultist who come on this forum and that question follows this line of logic:

The Sumerian mythical kings as well as the ancient pagan religions of Sumerians/Canaanites have older clay tablet records that predate all the oldest bible text ever found and these suggest that the writers of the bible stole from these same stores, Noah / Gilgamesh - virgin birth and son of the Sun god - all prove the bible false.

How do you respond to that?

Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees, fragments form Book of Giants, Works of Josephus and other works, (together with the bible) in fact indeed answers that objection.

Yet, folks are told they can't use these. Wow...

How amazing is ignorance...

“Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty."

From Saul Alinsky,'s "Rules for Radicals" a book he dedicated to Lucifer...
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#520

Post by DBowling » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:16 am

B. W. wrote:
DBowling wrote:
B. W. wrote: Book of Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees, Book of Giants and the enemies Kings List are not Gnostic nor mystical. Sad that folks think that.
Do you agree that Enoch 60:1 and Enoch 107:2 directly contradict the Scriptural narrative of the historical Enoch found in Genesis 5:23-24?

Do you have any evidence that the book of Enoch existed prior to 300 BC?

Why should a person who accepts the Scriptural record as truth embrace a theory based on a document that directly contradicts the Scriptural record regarding the historical Enoch, and that was written 4000 years after the time of the historical Enoch?
Dead sea scroll found fragments of 1 Enoch:

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/trans6.html

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/scr3.html

Which deal with the topic at hand - so yes there are fragments of text that date back to the BC time period way before 300 AD.
That's not quite accurate. The fragments of Enoch from the dead Sea Scrolls date to around 200 BC... which is after (not before) 300 BC.
Now, let us apply your same logic to all the NT cannon of Scripture...most surviving NT text date to around 300+ AD time period. And small fragments that go back to 1 AD era have been found as well but are not complete text - so should we toss out the bible due to the majority of text used in the NT as not apropo either all because of the lack of complete earlier text written before 300 AD as you say about Enoch?
My starting point is Jesus. My approach is very simple. I believe the documents that Jesus considered to be Scripture are Scripture.
The Sumerian mythical kings as well as the ancient pagan religions of Sumerians/Canaanites have older clay tablet records that predate all the oldest bible text ever found and these suggest that the writers of the bible stole from these same stores, Noah / Gilgamesh - virgin birth and son of the Sun god - all prove the bible false.

How do you respond to that?

Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees, fragments form Book of Giants, Works of Josephus and other works, (together with the bible) in fact indeed answers that objection.
The problem is that these intertestamental documents don't answer that objection because they were written around 200 BC, which is thousands of years after the canonical Scriptures and the Sumerian tablets were both written.
Yet, folks are told they can't use these. Wow...
I have no problem using these documents to help understand Judaism at the time when they were written. They are very valuable in understanding Judaism around 200 BC.

However they are of little value in understanding the historical events of 3000 - 4000 BC.

I couldn't help but notice that you did not answer this question
Do you agree that Enoch 60:1 and Enoch 107:2 directly contradict the Scriptural narrative of the historical Enoch found in Genesis 5:23-24?
Are you willing to embrace, as historically accurate, documents that directly contradict Scripture?

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#521

Post by RickD » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:13 pm

Titus 1:13-14

13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

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Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:24 pm

Hmm interesting.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#523

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:27 pm

Also, how tall were these Nephilim?
Or the Sumerian Kings and Patriarchs? Ik this is opinionated and I don't want it to distract from the above topic, but if one or the other were generally tall it would explain some mythical stories of giants ruling the earth. According to paleontology, most early humans and hominids were short or medium height. However many Heidelberg humans and groups of Homo Erectus were tall to giant size.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

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Post by abelcainsbrother » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:27 pm

The problem I see is that those who are telling us to go by only what the bible says are not doing so.Instead they are ignoring scripture that lets us know that the "sons of God" refers to angels and yet despite how many times angels are called "sons of God' this is ignored.Then they claim the bible does not say it. However if we just go by the bible we will know that sumerian kings is a myth and wrong bible doctrine.The bible does not say they are men in Genesis 6,it says "sons of God" and based on the fact where angels are called "sons of God' we know that these were angels too.This is not just making up stuff in order to call them men this is actually going by what the bible tells us.

But what is worse than this is by claiming that "sons of God' are men in Genesis 6 and not angels the church has no answer to pagans and many false gods that we know were worshipped as gods by man.a

And instead of being able to explain these were fallen angels and Nephilim/Giants that man worshipped as gods we have to just sit there while non-believers accuse the OT writers of copying and stealing from paganism,which is not true. But you have noway to confront these lies by calling them men in Genesis 6.

I mean it was believed Atlas carried the earth on his shoulders and this is because he was a Giant Nephilim hybrid half human and half angel who was much more powerful than man who was worshipped as a god.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#525

Post by DBowling » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:57 am

You make two factually false assertions in your post...
abelcainsbrother wrote:The problem I see is that those who are telling us to go by only what the bible says are not doing so.Instead they are ignoring scripture that lets us know that the "sons of God" refers to angels and yet despite how many times angels are called "sons of God' this is ignored.Then they claim the bible does not say it.
The first false assertion you make is that people are ignoring Scriptures that refer to angels as 'sons of God'. We all agree that Scripture refers to angels as 'sons of God'. There is no disagreement on that.
The disagreement arises with the claim by some that Satan and demons are referred to as 'sons of God' in Scripture.
There is no place in Scripture that refers to Satan and demons as 'sons of God', and Jesus himself clearly teaches that Satan is not a child of God.

The second false statement you make is the assertion that we are 'only going by what the Bible says'. As I have said many times in this thread, I have no problem using contemporary extrascriptural sources to corroborate the Scriptural narrative or to provide additional insight into the Scriptural narrative.
However, I do consider Scripture to represent truth. And Enoch, which was written 4000 years after the time of the historical Enoch, directly contradicts the Scriptural narrative in multiple places.

So do I consider a non-contemporary extrascriptural source that directly contradicts the Scriptural narrative to be historically accurate?
No

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