Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

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SoCalExile
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#46

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:02 am

On a side note, Michael Heiser (the popularizer of the Divine Council theory) thinks prophecy is so hard to understand, that you shouldn't "waste your time" with it. Apparently God disagrees. What's worse is he goes before gullible college kids and makes the worst logical arguments I have seen from a man with a Th.d.

Here's the vid and my hipshot deconstruction in the comments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFDY3HP7m1s
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#47

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:15 am

SoCalExile wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:No heavenly or divine council?

Well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Council

In the Hebrew Bible, there are multiple descriptions of Yahweh presiding over a great assembly of Heavenly Hosts. Some interpret these assemblies as examples of Divine Council:

"The Old Testament description of the 'divine assembly' all suggest that this metaphor for the organization of the divine world was consistent with that of Mesopotamia and Canaan. One difference, however, should be noted. In the Old Testament, the identities of the members of the assembly are far more obscure than those found in other descriptions of these groups, as in their polytheistic environment. Israelite writers sought to express both the uniqueness and the superiority of their God Yahweh."[1]

The Book of Psalms (Psalm 82:1), states "God (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim) stands in the divine assembly (בַּעֲדַת-אֵל ); He judges among the gods (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim)" (אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט). The meaning of the two occurrences of "elohim" has been debated by scholars, with some suggesting both words refer to YHWH, while others propose that God rules over a divine assembly of other Gods or angels.[9] Some translations of the passage render "God (elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty to judge the heart as God (elohim)"[10] (the Hebrew is "beqerev elohim", "in the midst of gods", and the word "qerev" if it were in the plural would mean "internal organs"[11]). Later in this Psalm, the word "gods" is used (in the KJV): Psalm 82:6 - "I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High." Instead of "gods", another version has "godlike beings",[12] but here again, the word is elohim/elohiym (Strong's H430).[13] This passage is quoted in the New Testament in John 10:34.[14]

In the Books of Kings (1 Kings 22:19), the prophet Micaiah has a vision of Yahweh seated among "the whole host of heaven" standing on his right and on his left. He asks who will go entice Ahab and a spirit volunteers. This has been interpreted as an example of a divine council.

The first two chapters of the Book of Job describe the "Sons of God" assembling in the presence of Yahweh. Like "multitudes of heaven", the term "Sons of God" defies certain interpretation. This assembly has been interpreted by some as another example of divine council. Others translate "Sons of God" as "angels", and thus argue this is not a divine council because angels are God's creation and not deities.

"The role of the divine assembly as a conceptual part of the background of Hebrew prophecy is clearly displayed in two descriptions of prophetic involvement in the heavenly council. In 1 Kings 22:19-23... Micaiah is allowed to see God (elohim) in action in the heavenly decision regarding the fate of Ahab. Isaiah 6 depicts a situation in which the prophet himself takes on the role of the messenger of the assembly and the message of the prophet is thus commissioned by Yahweh. The depiction here illustrates this important aspect of the conceptual background of prophetic authority."[15]


footnotes:
Sakenfeld, Katharine ed., "The New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible" Volume 2, pg 145, Abingdon Press, Nashville.
Jump up ^ Freedman, David N. ed., "The Anchor Bible Dictionary" Volume 2 pg 120, Doubleday, New York
Jump up ^ E. Theodore Mullen (1 June 1980). The divine council in Canaanite and early Hebrew literature. Scholars Press. ISBN 978-0-89130-380-0. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
^ Jump up to: a b Leda Jean Ciraolo; Jonathan Lee Seidel (2002). Magic and Divination in the Ancient World. BRILL. pp. 47–. ISBN 978-90-04-12406-6. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Virginia Schomp (15 December 2007). The Ancient Egyptians. Marshall Cavendish. pp. 71–. ISBN 978-0-7614-2549-6. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Alan W. Shorter (March 2009). The Egyptian Gods: A Handbook. Wildside Press LLC. pp. 42–. ISBN 978-1-4344-5515-4. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Leo G. Perdue (28 June 2007). Wisdom Literature: A Theological History. Presbyterian Publishing Corp. pp. 130–. ISBN 978-0-664-22919-1. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Mark S. Smith (2009). The Ugaritic Baal Cycle. BRILL. pp. 841–. ISBN 978-90-04-15348-6. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Michael S. Heiser. "Divine Council 101: Lesson 2: The elohim of Psalm 82 – gods or men?" (PDF).
Jump up ^ ""Psalms 82:1"".
Jump up ^ HamMilon Hechadash, Avraham Even-Shoshan, copyright 1988.
Jump up ^ "godlike beings, in JPS 1917". Retrieved 18 March 2013.
Jump up ^ "Psalm 82:6 KJV with Strong's H430 (elohim/elohiym)". Retrieved 18 March 2013.
Jump up ^ "John 10:34". Retrieved 18 March 2013.
Jump up ^ Freedman, David N. ed., "The Anchor Bible Dictionary" Volume 2 pg 123, Doubleday, New York
Jump up ^
Your argument (and Heiser's, the clown) is refuted by your own citation:
Psalm 82:7:

7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”

Eternal beings do not die. Also, the footnotes should read "Psalm 82:1 Hebrew elohim, mighty ones; that is, the judges
Psalm 82:6 Hebrew elohim, mighty ones; that is, the judges"

Try again. Or maybe you can stick to the topic and actually address the issue of the nephilim.

When it says you shall die like men it is talking about at judgment.Nobody thinks that angels die like men do but they will after judgment.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#48

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:21 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
When it says you shall die like men it is talking about at judgment.Nobody thinks that angels die like men do but they will after judgment.
That's reading into it....well the whole doctrine is reading into it.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#49

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:27 am

SoCalExile wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
When it says you shall die like men it is talking about at judgment.Nobody thinks that angels die like men do but they will after judgment.
That's reading into it....well the whole doctrine is reading into it.
No we are actually going by what the bible says it is you that could'nt even read what Jude clearly says and the Egyptians does'nt change it because these are fallen angels we are talking about and they are filled with immorality just like man or the Egyptians,but also the men of Sodom also and yes in a sexual way too going after strange flesh which would mean a woman or man would be strange flesh to an angel.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#50

Post by B. W. » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:55 am

Interesting subject since I am in process of writing a book on this topic...

My hypothesis contends that the fallen angels came and altered DNA and artificially impregnated women with corrupted DNA. In other words, they did not have sex with women. The Ancient Hebrew vocabulary of the Torah had roughly 8200 to 8500 words compare to modern English which has now over 350,000 words. With limited words to use, how would such language describe artificially impregnation other than by the same words used for sex? the results are the same, aren't they?

Are there other histories and ancient texts that speak of this?

Yes, such as Enoch, Book of Jasher, and even Josephus for starters. Therefore look at the quote from Jasher 4:18...
Book of Jasher chapter 4

Quoted From - http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/4.htm

16 And all the sons of men departed from the ways of the Lord in those days as they multiplied upon the face of the earth with sons and daughters, and they taught one another their evil practices and they continued sinning against the Lord.

17 And every man made unto himself a god, and they robbed and plundered every man his neighbor as well as his relative, and they corrupted the earth, and the earth was filled with violence.

18 And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.

19 And the Lord said, I will blot out man that I created from the face of the earth, yea from man to the birds of the air, together with cattle and beasts that are in the field for I repent that I made them.

20 And all men who walked in the ways of the Lord, died in those days, before the Lord brought the evil upon man which he had declared, for this was from the Lord, that they should not see the evil which the Lord spoke of concerning the sons of men.

21 And Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord chose him and his children to raise up seed from them upon the face of the whole earth.
What does verse 18 suggest to you? How can this happen other than by mixing DNA?

In our modern science abilities are we not mixing and genetically modifying food and animals? Look it up in science journals online and genetic research and what we are doing to our own food...

The answer is yes... Yet in the bible fallen angels could not do this as taught in many theological schools, yet, we can does not make sense in the light of other ancient text... and even Genesis chapter Six.

Jesus mentioned in Matt 24 and Luke 21 as was it in the days of Noah.. so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man... one taken - one left behind...

Genetic modification and the development of AI in robots - trans-humanism - is a new field of science... all interesting, isn't it?
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#52

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:38 am

B. W. wrote:Interesting subject since I am in process of writing a book on this topic...

My hypothesis contends that the fallen angels came and altered DNA and artificially impregnated women with corrupted DNA. In other words, they did not have sex with women. The Ancient Hebrew vocabulary of the Torah had roughly 8200 to 8500 words compare to modern English which has now over 350,000 words. With limited words to use, how would such language describe artificially impregnation other than by the same words used for sex? the results are the same, aren't they?

Are there other histories and ancient texts that speak of this?

Yes, such as Enoch, Book of Jasher, and even Josephus for starters. Therefore look at the quote from Jasher 4:18...
Book of Jasher chapter 4

Quoted From - http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/4.htm

16 And all the sons of men departed from the ways of the Lord in those days as they multiplied upon the face of the earth with sons and daughters, and they taught one another their evil practices and they continued sinning against the Lord.

17 And every man made unto himself a god, and they robbed and plundered every man his neighbor as well as his relative, and they corrupted the earth, and the earth was filled with violence.

18 And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.

19 And the Lord said, I will blot out man that I created from the face of the earth, yea from man to the birds of the air, together with cattle and beasts that are in the field for I repent that I made them.

20 And all men who walked in the ways of the Lord, died in those days, before the Lord brought the evil upon man which he had declared, for this was from the Lord, that they should not see the evil which the Lord spoke of concerning the sons of men.

21 And Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord chose him and his children to raise up seed from them upon the face of the whole earth.
What does verse 18 suggest to you? How can this happen other than by mixing DNA?

In our modern science abilities are we not mixing and genetically modifying food and animals? Look it up in science journals online and genetic research and what we are doing to our own food...

The answer is yes... Yet in the bible fallen angels could not do this as taught in many theological schools, yet, we can does not make sense in the light of other ancient text... and even Genesis chapter Six.

Jesus mentioned in Matt 24 and Luke 21 as was it in the days of Noah.. so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man... one taken - one left behind...

Genetic modification and the development of AI in robots - trans-humanism - is a new field of science... all interesting, isn't it?
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I was going to say that it could not be sexual but the messing around with DNA in order to produce the hybrids/Nephilim too and this too could be considered going after strange flesh too. I mean the results are the same as hybrids were produced and you're right today they are mixing and genetically modifying animals and plants and so yes we should expect it to return in the last days. I could go with either scenario myself and say that we should expect to see fallen angels return in the last days,I say tribulation period after the rapture but I believe hybrid giants will be produced again by these fallen angels.I realize some may not take it as far as I do,or may have a slightly different belief about these hybrids produced and what they are but could you imagine a giant as the anti-christ? Or possibly like you hint at like cyborgs,etc. Talk about who can make war with the beast?,if these giants do return I could very well see how they could take over and rule the world in such a short time but I think they may be even more powerful than in the past like supernatural power because after the rapture the restrainer is removed.You know,God is restraining what Satan's kingdom can do for now in this age of grace but oneday it will be removed.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#53

Post by B. W. » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:45 am

The history of Sethite theory:

The Sethite theory basically states that in Genesis chapter six that Seth line was pure and the rest of Cain were not. The Sons of God meant human beings and not angelic host.

Does it stand up today - no - it is a recent addition and its history is traced back in the pre-middle ages. Before that, there it was taught that the sons of god refer to fallen angles. For Centuries from ancient rabbinical sources, ancient books quoted in the bible like Enoch and Jasher, the Septuagint translators, and later, the early-early church fathers taught the fallen angel view.

By the time of the middle ages and on up to the age of reason Genesis 6 became embarrassment to the church for the following reasons:

Angel worship had begun in the church through the Roman Catholic dogma of the 5th century etc and etc...

Celsus and Julian the Apostate had begun to use the Angel View to attack Christianity

Thus Christian apologetist, Julius Africanus, came up with the Sethite paradigm and this this was championed further by Cyril of Alexandria, and Augustine... etc and etc and even so today.

Fact is, it is a recent theory.

The crux issue was how could angels have sex with woman? Answer is simple - they cannot.

Genetic engineering was unknown as was artificial pregnanation to all the ancients and people did not factor in the limited words vocabulary in the Hebrew Torah either. Thus, in the magnificence of human intellectual superiority over the wisdom of fallen angels, the view came that angels had literal sex with human females when Jesus said this is impossible as angels are not given in marriage - no sex in heaven...

No one thought of any other way other than literal sex Between angels and women. Thus by the magnificence of human intellectual superiority it alone trumped the wisdom and intellect of that any angels could have and that only by direct sexual intercourse could what happen in Genesis 6 occurred.

Now, we know about DNA and our scientist seek to modify human, animal, and plant DNA before our eyes, yet, due the the magnificence of human theological intellectual superiority we deem angels, fallen ones as too stupid to modify DNA to corrupt humanity and thus disprove God as inapplicable of keeping his promise to mankind in Gen 1:26-29, and Gen 2:15 as well as stop the woman's seed from crushing the head of one particular fallen angel.

Bible tells us, we are lower than the angels, thus angels are not stupid and incapable of DNA manipulation in the past, present, or future till all things are fulfilled in bible prophecy...
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#54

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:24 am

I am not really sure why we believe that angels in human form, which we note are typically indistinguishable from humans, can't have sex with human females on Earth because of what Jesus said they can't do in heaven in, obviously, angelic form.

That said, BW may be correct.

The only thing that we do get from the actual reading is that the Sons of God mated with human females and, withing the context of Genesis and the OT, The Sons of God are viewed as divine beings of some sort.

That the descendants of the Nephilim are viewed as having above average stature ( giants) is also stated.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#55

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:19 pm

Actually I think that both can be true.There is reason to believe that Satan knows how to manipulate DNA and mix as B.W. brought up but I also think it is true that the fallen angels can have sex with women also.Just because angels are not given in marriage does not mean these fallen angels did'nt go against normal angelic behavior and did have sex with not only women but man and animals also.

I also could see a scenario where we humans do produce hybrids such as cyborgs,etc but also fallen angels do too by producing hybrids or giants in order to control and move the world into the mark of the beast system.I think both man and angels can and do and will do.And if these hybrids really are produced whether or not it is by sex or DNA mixing there is reason to believe that those who reject the mark of the beast will be not only hunted down and not only slaughtered but violated sexually also.I lean more toward giants like Goliath in the bible that was a hybrid giant but it is possible that they could be cyborgs.The reason I lean more toward hybrid giants and not hybrid cyborgs is because the antichrist is of the Devil which are fallen angelic beings and not from man.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#56

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:50 pm

Biblically speaking, all we can see is what is read from the text and what was written about those texts from those time periods.
As BW stated, the view that the Sons of God were divine beings of some sorts ( the term angel means messenger so that is really more a "job title") was the understanding up to AND during the time of Christ and the first few generations of disciples.
What the nephilim were exactly and how they became that way is simply not known.
The terms used in Genesis and Jude and Peter point to sexual and/or unnatural relationships.
Giants, by the way, simply means that they were way above average height.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#57

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:38 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:I am not really sure why we believe that angels in human form, which we note are typically indistinguishable from humans, can't have sex with human females on Earth because of what Jesus said they can't do in heaven in, obviously, angelic form.

That said, BW may be correct.

The only thing that we do get from the actual reading is that the Sons of God mated with human females and, withing the context of Genesis and the OT, The Sons of God are viewed as divine beings of some sort.

That the descendants of the Nephilim are viewed as having above average stature ( giants) is also stated.
What was the average height, btw? It doesn't say but anyone got ideas?

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#58

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:50 pm

B. W. wrote:Interesting subject since I am in process of writing a book on this topic...

My hypothesis contends that the fallen angels came and altered DNA and artificially impregnated women with corrupted DNA. In other words, they did not have sex with women. The Ancient Hebrew vocabulary of the Torah had roughly 8200 to 8500 words compare to modern English which has now over 350,000 words. With limited words to use, how would such language describe artificially impregnation other than by the same words used for sex? the results are the same, aren't they?

Are there other histories and ancient texts that speak of this?

Yes, such as Enoch, Book of Jasher, and even Josephus for starters. Therefore look at the quote from Jasher 4:18...
Book of Jasher chapter 4

Quoted From - http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/4.htm

16 And all the sons of men departed from the ways of the Lord in those days as they multiplied upon the face of the earth with sons and daughters, and they taught one another their evil practices and they continued sinning against the Lord.

17 And every man made unto himself a god, and they robbed and plundered every man his neighbor as well as his relative, and they corrupted the earth, and the earth was filled with violence.

18 And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.

19 And the Lord said, I will blot out man that I created from the face of the earth, yea from man to the birds of the air, together with cattle and beasts that are in the field for I repent that I made them.

20 And all men who walked in the ways of the Lord, died in those days, before the Lord brought the evil upon man which he had declared, for this was from the Lord, that they should not see the evil which the Lord spoke of concerning the sons of men.

21 And Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord chose him and his children to raise up seed from them upon the face of the whole earth.
What does verse 18 suggest to you? How can this happen other than by mixing DNA?

In our modern science abilities are we not mixing and genetically modifying food and animals? Look it up in science journals online and genetic research and what we are doing to our own food...

The answer is yes... Yet in the bible fallen angels could not do this as taught in many theological schools, yet, we can does not make sense in the light of other ancient text... and even Genesis chapter Six.

Jesus mentioned in Matt 24 and Luke 21 as was it in the days of Noah.. so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man... one taken - one left behind...

Genetic modification and the development of AI in robots - trans-humanism - is a new field of science... all interesting, isn't it?
-
-
-
Ancient Sumerian texts also mention of manipulating DNA so early humans would harvest gold. Certain people think Homo Sapiens have manipulated DNA and that our ancestors were aliens or something.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#59

Post by RickD » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:10 pm

Here's R.C. Sproul Jr.'s take on nephilim:
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/who-are-so ... genesis-6/
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#60

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:26 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
When it says you shall die like men it is talking about at judgment.Nobody thinks that angels die like men do but they will after judgment.
I disagree. And repeating the same argument doesn't make it true. You guys are trying to proof-text, and with one word you are trying to build an entire theological system, which is new BTW....
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