Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 24 times
Been liked: 154 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#406

Post by DBowling » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:52 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:John 8:
You Are of Your Father the Devil
39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
Are we to read this and think that Jesus meant that they are BEGOTTEN of The Devil? actual children "born of" The Devil or is Jesus using hyperbole?
Is Jesus stating that his accusers are actual OF The Devil or that they belong to The Devil because they reject Him?
I would say that there is one and only one "begotten" Son of God.
(ie a "son of God" who is in nature God)
Everyone else who is part of God's family is a created being.

Angels started out as members of the family of God when they were created, but those who rebelled against God ceased to be members of God's family when they rebelled.

Humans are different... when we enter life, we are not part of God's family, but when we put our faith in Jesus then we transition from being outside of God's family to becoming part of God's family.
These users liked this post by DBowling:
PaulSacramento (Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:49 am)

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 24 times
Been liked: 154 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#407

Post by DBowling » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:59 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: I am ok with that view BUT I have to ask:
Where in the bible does it state that?
Where does the bible say that a Son of God, an angelic being, is no longer a son of God if they rebel ?
The main proof text I have been using for that assertion is John 8:37-47

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21176
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 195 times
Been liked: 1060 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#408

Post by RickD » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:53 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Not that Satan was allowed access to Job, its that a fallen and cursed angel seems to be just waltzing in to God's assembly with God's Sons.
Not sure what your point is here. Whether one believes that sons of God refers to fallen angels, or not, the text still says that Satan was before God.
My query is a logical one Rick.
How does a being that was cast out and cursed seem to have open access not only to heaven but to approach God along with His Sons?
Where does the Bible say that Satan has open access to heaven?

He came along with the Sons of God in Job 1 and 2

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”


Does that strike as someone that doesn't come and go as he pleases ??
Satan openly states that he has come from going "to and fro on the Earth" and "walking around on it".

The text doesn't seem to imply that he is NOT allowed to be there or that he "snuck in".

Again, where does the Bible say that Satan has open access to heaven? The verses you posted above, say that Satan also came among the sons of God. It doesn't say that Satan has free access to heaven. The verses you posted, actually don't even mention heaven.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9055
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 341 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#409

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:50 am

DBowling wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: I am ok with that view BUT I have to ask:
Where in the bible does it state that?
Where does the bible say that a Son of God, an angelic being, is no longer a son of God if they rebel ?
The main proof text I have been using for that assertion is John 8:37-47
You are reading INTO the text since the text doesn't actually say that angelic beings "lose" their status as sons of God when they rebel.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9055
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 341 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#410

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:57 am

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote: Not sure what your point is here. Whether one believes that sons of God refers to fallen angels, or not, the text still says that Satan was before God.
My query is a logical one Rick.
How does a being that was cast out and cursed seem to have open access not only to heaven but to approach God along with His Sons?
Where does the Bible say that Satan has open access to heaven?

He came along with the Sons of God in Job 1 and 2

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”


Does that strike as someone that doesn't come and go as he pleases ??
Satan openly states that he has come from going "to and fro on the Earth" and "walking around on it".

The text doesn't seem to imply that he is NOT allowed to be there or that he "snuck in".

Again, where does the Bible say that Satan has open access to heaven? The verses you posted above, say that Satan also came among the sons of God. It doesn't say that Satan has free access to heaven. The verses you posted, actually don't even mention heaven.



Ah, you are going by the literal and concrete reading of those passage sin Job 1 and 2.
Fair enough, they do NOT state that the meeting of God and the Sons of God happened in heaven, so where did it happen Rick?

You keep pulling this little "rabbit" out of you hat ( "where does the verse say...") but if we take it down THAT path, you do realize the can of worms you have opened right?

Where does ANY verse ACTUALLY say that God is a Trinity ?
Where does ANY verse ACTUALLY say that the HS is God?
and so forth.

My point is that we CAN deduce certain things from verse that are logical and reasonable even if the verses don't EXPLICITLY say those things.
Like DB stating that angels lose their status with God when they rebel and getting that from John 8:37-47, or assuming the the conversation between Satan and God in Job 1 and 2 is happening in Heaven ( since Satan said he had come from the Earth) even though it doesn't say that anywhere.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21176
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 195 times
Been liked: 1060 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#411

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:24 am

Paul,

I asked you where the Bible says Satan has open access to heaven. You posted one verse to back up your assertion that Satan has open access to heaven. And in the verse you posted, it doesn't say or even imply that Satan has open access to heaven.

If you asked me for biblical evidence to back the Trinity, you know that I could post dozens of bible verses that back the Trinity.

You post one verse that doesn't even suggest open access, and may or not be heaven where God has Satan come before Him.

I hope you can see the difference.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 24 times
Been liked: 154 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#412

Post by DBowling » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:45 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
DBowling wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: I am ok with that view BUT I have to ask:
Where in the bible does it state that?
Where does the bible say that a Son of God, an angelic being, is no longer a son of God if they rebel ?
The main proof text I have been using for that assertion is John 8:37-47
You are reading INTO the text since the text doesn't actually say that angelic beings "lose" their status as sons of God when they rebel.
Would you agree with me that Jesus explicitly teaches that being a child of God and being a child of Satan are mutually exclusive?
Why?
Because God and Satan are not part of the same family

Would you agree with me that Jesus also teaches that being a child of God and being a child of Abraham are not mutually exclusive?
Why?
Because Abraham is part of the family of God. Which is why if you are truly a part of the family of Abraham then you are also part of the family of God. (see Galatians 3:26-29)

Revelation 20 and 21 also clearly distinguish between the eternal destiny of Satan and his family and the the eternal destiny of the family of God

Jesus reinforces another key point in John 8 that he also makes elsewhere.
Belonging to the family of God (or even Abraham) is not a function of DNA, it is a function of the heart.
Which by definition excludes Satan and his followers/family.

In Christ

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9055
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 341 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#413

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:54 am

RickD wrote:Paul,

I asked you where the Bible says Satan has open access to heaven. You posted one verse to back up your assertion that Satan has open access to heaven. And in the verse you posted, it doesn't say or even imply that Satan has open access to heaven.

If you asked me for biblical evidence to back the Trinity, you know that I could post dozens of bible verses that back the Trinity.

You post one verse that doesn't even suggest open access, and may or not be heaven where God has Satan come before Him.

I hope you can see the difference.
And I hope that you can see that just because something is not plainly/explicitly stated, doesn't mean that it isn't there.

There is nothing in Job 1 or 2 that implies that Satan was NOT permitted to be there.
Back to my question then, if you don't think that the conversation took place in heaven, where did it take place?

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9055
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 341 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#414

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:56 am

DBowling wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
DBowling wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: I am ok with that view BUT I have to ask:
Where in the bible does it state that?
Where does the bible say that a Son of God, an angelic being, is no longer a son of God if they rebel ?
The main proof text I have been using for that assertion is John 8:37-47
You are reading INTO the text since the text doesn't actually say that angelic beings "lose" their status as sons of God when they rebel.
Would you agree with me that Jesus explicitly teaches that being a child of God and being a child of Satan are mutually exclusive?
Why?
Because God and Satan are not part of the same family

Would you agree with me that Jesus also teaches that being a child of God and being a child of Abraham are not mutually exclusive?
Why?
Because Abraham is part of the family of God. Which is why if you are truly a part of the family of Abraham then you are also part of the family of God. (see Galatians 3:26-29)

Revelation 20 and 21 also clearly distinguish between the eternal destiny of Satan and his family and the the eternal destiny of the family of God

Jesus reinforces another key point in John 8 that he also makes elsewhere.
Belonging to the family of God (or even Abraham) is not a function of DNA, it is a function of the heart.
Which by definition excludes Satan and his followers/family.

In Christ
Oh yes I agree, I am juts pointing out that we are reading into those verse what is not there.

That is my argument with Rick.
We seem to be ok reading into scripture what is not (plainly)there when it suits our interpretation or doctrine but not ok when it doesn't.

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 24 times
Been liked: 154 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#415

Post by DBowling » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:23 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Would you agree with me that Jesus explicitly teaches that being a child of God and being a child of Satan are mutually exclusive?
Why?
Because God and Satan are not part of the same family

Would you agree with me that Jesus also teaches that being a child of God and being a child of Abraham are not mutually exclusive?
Why?
Because Abraham is part of the family of God. Which is why if you are truly a part of the family of Abraham then you are also part of the family of God. (see Galatians 3:26-29)

Revelation 20 and 21 also clearly distinguish between the eternal destiny of Satan and his family and the the eternal destiny of the family of God

Jesus reinforces another key point in John 8 that he also makes elsewhere.
Belonging to the family of God (or even Abraham) is not a function of DNA, it is a function of the heart.
Which by definition excludes Satan and his followers/family.

In Christ
Oh yes I agree, I am juts pointing out that we are reading into those verse what is not there.
Could you please hilight those portions of my post above which you think are not clearly and explicitly taught by Scripture

Thanks

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9055
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 341 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#416

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:39 am

No where in those verse do we see the words stating that angels that rebel are not sons of God.
Those words never appear there or anywhere.
Implication, yes of course.
But you do not find anywhere this verse :
"Angels, that rebel against God, are no longer sons of God."

DBowling
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 24 times
Been liked: 154 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#417

Post by DBowling » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:13 am

PaulSacramento wrote:No where in those verse do we see the words stating that angels that rebel are not sons of God.
Those words never appear there or anywhere.
Implication, yes of course.
But you do not find anywhere this verse :
"Angels, that rebel against God, are no longer sons of God."
But I assume you agree with me that Jesus explicitly teaches that being a child of God and being a child of Satan are mutually exclusive.
==> Any member of the family of Satan cannot be a member of the family of God

By definition Satan is a member of the family of Satan
==> According to the explicit teaching of Jesus
Satan cannot be a member of the family of God

If we assume that the pre-fallen Lucifer was a member of the family of God
and
If according to the explicit teaching of Jesus, Satan is not currently a member of the family of God
==> At some point in time Satan must have made a transition from being a member of the family of God to no longer being part of the family of God.

I guess there are some presumptions surrounding the status of pre-fallen Lucifer, and the events that surrounded the transition to his current state.

But there is no presumption regarding his current status. There is no interpretation of John 8:37-47 that can lead to the assertion that Satan is currently a member of the family of God.
Jesus eliminates that option.

And we haven't even touched on what Scripture teaches about the heart attitude that is part of members of the family of God.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9055
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 341 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#418

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:25 am

Db, yes I agree with your points.
My point is that we get this understanding via reasoning through verse, like you just did above and NOT be any explicit verse that states it plainly and this is valid exegesis.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21176
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 195 times
Been liked: 1060 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#419

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:45 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:Paul,

I asked you where the Bible says Satan has open access to heaven. You posted one verse to back up your assertion that Satan has open access to heaven. And in the verse you posted, it doesn't say or even imply that Satan has open access to heaven.

If you asked me for biblical evidence to back the Trinity, you know that I could post dozens of bible verses that back the Trinity.

You post one verse that doesn't even suggest open access, and may or not be heaven where God has Satan come before Him.

I hope you can see the difference.
And I hope that you can see that just because something is not plainly/explicitly stated, doesn't mean that it isn't there.

There is nothing in Job 1 or 2 that implies that Satan was NOT permitted to be there.
Back to my question then, if you don't think that the conversation took place in heaven, where did it take place?
1) if something isn't clearly or explicitly stated in scripture, we need to be cautious about believing in it. That's my argument. You and others believe sons of God can refer to fallen angels. We need to be careful, because that can lead to all kinds of unbiblical beliefs. For example, see B. W.'s theory that the end times will have DNA manipulated giants who are perpetuating evil, because he reads some mystical interpretation of DNA manipulation into scripture, and says that "in the days of Noah" was referring to evil DNA manipulated giants.

2) I never said there was anything in Job that claimed Satan wasn't allowed in God's presence. He was in God's presence. Im just trying to show you that there's nothing in Job, or anywhere else that says Satan was allowed "open access" to heaven, as you claim. God allowing Satan to be in His presence, does not equal "open access".

3) I never said that the conversation didn't take place in heaven. I never made any claim to where it did or didn't take place.

I still don't think you see how you or B. W. are reading into scripture.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9055
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 341 times

Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#420

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:57 am

Rick,
I see your point but I don't think you are seeing mine.

My point is that, return to the original theme, Sons of God Can refer to divine beings in Genesis 6 and tradition tells us that was a view that was shared, perhaps even the main view during Second temple.

I agree that fallen angels are NOT sons of God anymore in the Theological sense, as DB argued, BUT they still are in the creative sense, since they were are one point Sons of God ( only their fallen status revokes that).

The distinction I am making this:
Fallen angels were, before their fall, Sons of God.
They lost their STATUS as Sons of God (disinherited if you will) when they rebelled BUT are still Sons of God technically ( like a son is still a son even if disinherited).

As for Satan in the precense of God, I think you are nitpicking to be honest.
The undisputed facts of Job 1 and 2 are these:
Satan is WITH the Sons of God.
Satan is with them with God.
Satan has just come from Earth.
Satan is NOT prohibited from being with them nor is he chastised for being there.

Its is logical and reasonable to infer from this that:
Satan and the Sons of God are NOT on Earth and since they are with God and God is in Heaven, they are in Heaven also.
Satan is NOT prohibited from being with the Sons of God or going to Heaven.
We can deduce from that, logically and reasonably that, Satan has access to heaven with no APPARENT restrictions.
We can also deduce from God NOT chastising Satan from being there that he is not unwelcome.

To counter these views you must show where, in Job 1 and 2, Satan is told that he is not welcome, not allowed there.

Post Reply