Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#31

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:18 am

RickD wrote:Yes, knock off the appeals to authority, and listen to PaulSacramento, because he's taken theology classes.
Not sure if you are being fictitious or not Rick but I do NOT profess to be an authority simply because of I have my Masters.
I haven't even quote any scholar or linked any article.
I have simply shown what the bible actually says and mentioned that it is well know by scholars.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#32

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:21 am

No heavenly or divine council?

Well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Council

In the Hebrew Bible, there are multiple descriptions of Yahweh presiding over a great assembly of Heavenly Hosts. Some interpret these assemblies as examples of Divine Council:

"The Old Testament description of the 'divine assembly' all suggest that this metaphor for the organization of the divine world was consistent with that of Mesopotamia and Canaan. One difference, however, should be noted. In the Old Testament, the identities of the members of the assembly are far more obscure than those found in other descriptions of these groups, as in their polytheistic environment. Israelite writers sought to express both the uniqueness and the superiority of their God Yahweh."[1]

The Book of Psalms (Psalm 82:1), states "God (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim) stands in the divine assembly (בַּעֲדַת-אֵל ); He judges among the gods (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim)" (אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט). The meaning of the two occurrences of "elohim" has been debated by scholars, with some suggesting both words refer to YHWH, while others propose that God rules over a divine assembly of other Gods or angels.[9] Some translations of the passage render "God (elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty to judge the heart as God (elohim)"[10] (the Hebrew is "beqerev elohim", "in the midst of gods", and the word "qerev" if it were in the plural would mean "internal organs"[11]). Later in this Psalm, the word "gods" is used (in the KJV): Psalm 82:6 - "I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High." Instead of "gods", another version has "godlike beings",[12] but here again, the word is elohim/elohiym (Strong's H430).[13] This passage is quoted in the New Testament in John 10:34.[14]

In the Books of Kings (1 Kings 22:19), the prophet Micaiah has a vision of Yahweh seated among "the whole host of heaven" standing on his right and on his left. He asks who will go entice Ahab and a spirit volunteers. This has been interpreted as an example of a divine council.

The first two chapters of the Book of Job describe the "Sons of God" assembling in the presence of Yahweh. Like "multitudes of heaven", the term "Sons of God" defies certain interpretation. This assembly has been interpreted by some as another example of divine council. Others translate "Sons of God" as "angels", and thus argue this is not a divine council because angels are God's creation and not deities.

"The role of the divine assembly as a conceptual part of the background of Hebrew prophecy is clearly displayed in two descriptions of prophetic involvement in the heavenly council. In 1 Kings 22:19-23... Micaiah is allowed to see God (elohim) in action in the heavenly decision regarding the fate of Ahab. Isaiah 6 depicts a situation in which the prophet himself takes on the role of the messenger of the assembly and the message of the prophet is thus commissioned by Yahweh. The depiction here illustrates this important aspect of the conceptual background of prophetic authority."[15]


footnotes:
Sakenfeld, Katharine ed., "The New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible" Volume 2, pg 145, Abingdon Press, Nashville.
Jump up ^ Freedman, David N. ed., "The Anchor Bible Dictionary" Volume 2 pg 120, Doubleday, New York
Jump up ^ E. Theodore Mullen (1 June 1980). The divine council in Canaanite and early Hebrew literature. Scholars Press. ISBN 978-0-89130-380-0. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
^ Jump up to: a b Leda Jean Ciraolo; Jonathan Lee Seidel (2002). Magic and Divination in the Ancient World. BRILL. pp. 47–. ISBN 978-90-04-12406-6. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Virginia Schomp (15 December 2007). The Ancient Egyptians. Marshall Cavendish. pp. 71–. ISBN 978-0-7614-2549-6. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Alan W. Shorter (March 2009). The Egyptian Gods: A Handbook. Wildside Press LLC. pp. 42–. ISBN 978-1-4344-5515-4. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Leo G. Perdue (28 June 2007). Wisdom Literature: A Theological History. Presbyterian Publishing Corp. pp. 130–. ISBN 978-0-664-22919-1. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Mark S. Smith (2009). The Ugaritic Baal Cycle. BRILL. pp. 841–. ISBN 978-90-04-15348-6. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Michael S. Heiser. "Divine Council 101: Lesson 2: The elohim of Psalm 82 – gods or men?" (PDF).
Jump up ^ ""Psalms 82:1"".
Jump up ^ HamMilon Hechadash, Avraham Even-Shoshan, copyright 1988.
Jump up ^ "godlike beings, in JPS 1917". Retrieved 18 March 2013.
Jump up ^ "Psalm 82:6 KJV with Strong's H430 (elohim/elohiym)". Retrieved 18 March 2013.
Jump up ^ "John 10:34". Retrieved 18 March 2013.
Jump up ^ Freedman, David N. ed., "The Anchor Bible Dictionary" Volume 2 pg 123, Doubleday, New York
Jump up ^
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#33

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:23 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Dude, you post an opinion for a website, that is appealing to authority !
I simply gave you tit for tat.
I suggest you watch the attitude though, I am not liking your tone.
We are trying to have a civil discussion here and your tone is far from that.
For every scholar that you can quote, I can quote you the same or more supporting my view, that is my point.

You have yet to address all the passages that explicitly state that there are other Gods, that God has an assembly and that the nations were given to other gods.

How do you address The Pslams I mentioned? the Deuteronomy passages I stated?
And since we are not appealing to authority, like you mentioned above, how do YOU address these things?
Seems someone's skin is a little thin. Address the points and quit complaining. I purposefully did not cite the source, so the authority has no bearing here, because I want you to address the point being made. Notice I'm not appealing to my OWN authority.
God's grace is not cheap; it's free.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#34

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:28 am

PaulSacramento wrote:No heavenly or divine council?

Well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Council

In the Hebrew Bible, there are multiple descriptions of Yahweh presiding over a great assembly of Heavenly Hosts. Some interpret these assemblies as examples of Divine Council:

"The Old Testament description of the 'divine assembly' all suggest that this metaphor for the organization of the divine world was consistent with that of Mesopotamia and Canaan. One difference, however, should be noted. In the Old Testament, the identities of the members of the assembly are far more obscure than those found in other descriptions of these groups, as in their polytheistic environment. Israelite writers sought to express both the uniqueness and the superiority of their God Yahweh."[1]

The Book of Psalms (Psalm 82:1), states "God (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim) stands in the divine assembly (בַּעֲדַת-אֵל ); He judges among the gods (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim)" (אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט). The meaning of the two occurrences of "elohim" has been debated by scholars, with some suggesting both words refer to YHWH, while others propose that God rules over a divine assembly of other Gods or angels.[9] Some translations of the passage render "God (elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty to judge the heart as God (elohim)"[10] (the Hebrew is "beqerev elohim", "in the midst of gods", and the word "qerev" if it were in the plural would mean "internal organs"[11]). Later in this Psalm, the word "gods" is used (in the KJV): Psalm 82:6 - "I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High." Instead of "gods", another version has "godlike beings",[12] but here again, the word is elohim/elohiym (Strong's H430).[13] This passage is quoted in the New Testament in John 10:34.[14]

In the Books of Kings (1 Kings 22:19), the prophet Micaiah has a vision of Yahweh seated among "the whole host of heaven" standing on his right and on his left. He asks who will go entice Ahab and a spirit volunteers. This has been interpreted as an example of a divine council.

The first two chapters of the Book of Job describe the "Sons of God" assembling in the presence of Yahweh. Like "multitudes of heaven", the term "Sons of God" defies certain interpretation. This assembly has been interpreted by some as another example of divine council. Others translate "Sons of God" as "angels", and thus argue this is not a divine council because angels are God's creation and not deities.

"The role of the divine assembly as a conceptual part of the background of Hebrew prophecy is clearly displayed in two descriptions of prophetic involvement in the heavenly council. In 1 Kings 22:19-23... Micaiah is allowed to see God (elohim) in action in the heavenly decision regarding the fate of Ahab. Isaiah 6 depicts a situation in which the prophet himself takes on the role of the messenger of the assembly and the message of the prophet is thus commissioned by Yahweh. The depiction here illustrates this important aspect of the conceptual background of prophetic authority."[15]


footnotes:
Sakenfeld, Katharine ed., "The New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible" Volume 2, pg 145, Abingdon Press, Nashville.
Jump up ^ Freedman, David N. ed., "The Anchor Bible Dictionary" Volume 2 pg 120, Doubleday, New York
Jump up ^ E. Theodore Mullen (1 June 1980). The divine council in Canaanite and early Hebrew literature. Scholars Press. ISBN 978-0-89130-380-0. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
^ Jump up to: a b Leda Jean Ciraolo; Jonathan Lee Seidel (2002). Magic and Divination in the Ancient World. BRILL. pp. 47–. ISBN 978-90-04-12406-6. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Virginia Schomp (15 December 2007). The Ancient Egyptians. Marshall Cavendish. pp. 71–. ISBN 978-0-7614-2549-6. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Alan W. Shorter (March 2009). The Egyptian Gods: A Handbook. Wildside Press LLC. pp. 42–. ISBN 978-1-4344-5515-4. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Leo G. Perdue (28 June 2007). Wisdom Literature: A Theological History. Presbyterian Publishing Corp. pp. 130–. ISBN 978-0-664-22919-1. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Mark S. Smith (2009). The Ugaritic Baal Cycle. BRILL. pp. 841–. ISBN 978-90-04-15348-6. Retrieved 25 September 2012.
Jump up ^ Michael S. Heiser. "Divine Council 101: Lesson 2: The elohim of Psalm 82 – gods or men?" (PDF).
Jump up ^ ""Psalms 82:1"".
Jump up ^ HamMilon Hechadash, Avraham Even-Shoshan, copyright 1988.
Jump up ^ "godlike beings, in JPS 1917". Retrieved 18 March 2013.
Jump up ^ "Psalm 82:6 KJV with Strong's H430 (elohim/elohiym)". Retrieved 18 March 2013.
Jump up ^ "John 10:34". Retrieved 18 March 2013.
Jump up ^ Freedman, David N. ed., "The Anchor Bible Dictionary" Volume 2 pg 123, Doubleday, New York
Jump up ^
Your argument (and Heiser's, the clown) is refuted by your own citation:
Psalm 82:7:

7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”

Eternal beings do not die. Also, the footnotes should read "Psalm 82:1 Hebrew elohim, mighty ones; that is, the judges
Psalm 82:6 Hebrew elohim, mighty ones; that is, the judges"

Try again. Or maybe you can stick to the topic and actually address the issue of the nephilim.
God's grace is not cheap; it's free.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#35

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:30 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:Yes, knock off the appeals to authority, and listen to PaulSacramento, because he's taken theology classes.
Not sure if you are being fictitious or not Rick but I do NOT profess to be an authority simply because of I have my Masters.
I haven't even quote any scholar or linked any article.
I have simply shown what the bible actually says and mentioned that it is well know by scholars.
Then why did you bring up your degree?

You're a man of contradictions.
God's grace is not cheap; it's free.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#36

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:33 am

SoCalExile wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Dude, you post an opinion for a website, that is appealing to authority !
I simply gave you tit for tat.
I suggest you watch the attitude though, I am not liking your tone.
We are trying to have a civil discussion here and your tone is far from that.
For every scholar that you can quote, I can quote you the same or more supporting my view, that is my point.

You have yet to address all the passages that explicitly state that there are other Gods, that God has an assembly and that the nations were given to other gods.

How do you address The Pslams I mentioned? the Deuteronomy passages I stated?
And since we are not appealing to authority, like you mentioned above, how do YOU address these things?
Seems someone's skin is a little thin. Address the points and quit complaining. I purposefully did not cite the source, so the authority has no bearing here, because I want you to address the point being made. Notice I'm not appealing to my OWN authority.
Your tone is disrespectful, period.
It's not about thin skin, its about common courtesy.

I addressed your points, I disagreed with them and stated why.
Did you address mine?

Here :
Deuteronomy 29:26
Here:
A Psalm of Asaph.

82 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

Here:
1 Kings 22:19
Job of course.

The prohibitions about having other Gods, which if they didn't exist would be silly.
And so forth.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#37

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:34 am

Your argument (and Heiser's, the clown) is refuted by your own citation:
Psalm 82:7:

7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”

Eternal beings do not die. Also, the footnotes should read "Psalm 82:1 Hebrew elohim, mighty ones; that is, the judges
Psalm 82:6 Hebrew elohim, mighty ones; that is, the judges"

Try again. Or maybe you can stick to the topic and actually address the issue of the nephilim.
What?
So your problem is that you think the sons of god/ other gods are eternal?
Where in the bible does it say that anyone BUT God, YHWH, is eternal ??
Dying like men ( mortals) makes sense ONLY if these were NOT men.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#38

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:36 am

SoCalExile wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:Yes, knock off the appeals to authority, and listen to PaulSacramento, because he's taken theology classes.
Not sure if you are being fictitious or not Rick but I do NOT profess to be an authority simply because of I have my Masters.
I haven't even quote any scholar or linked any article.
I have simply shown what the bible actually says and mentioned that it is well know by scholars.
Then why did you bring up your degree?

You're a man of contradictions.
Context son:

What I said:
I also think that you may be forgetting that I have a Masters in Theology and I can assure you these things ARE studied and are discussed and that, historically, it is not and never has been as clear cut as you are implying.
As a matter of fact, the ancient writings bare witness to that.
I brought up my degree to show that these things ARE discussed and studied and NOT dismissed.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#39

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:38 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Your tone is disrespectful, period.
It's not about thin skin, its about common courtesy.

I addressed your points, I disagreed with them and stated why.
Did you address mine?

Here :
Deuteronomy 29:26
Here:
A Psalm of Asaph.

82 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

Here:
1 Kings 22:19
Job of course.

The prohibitions about having other Gods, which if they didn't exist would be silly.
And so forth.
Again, repeating refuted arguments doesn't make them true. Also, cherry-picking translations doesn't help either. neither does whining. Address my points.
God's grace is not cheap; it's free.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#40

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:44 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Your argument (and Heiser's, the clown) is refuted by your own citation:
Psalm 82:7:

7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”

Eternal beings do not die. Also, the footnotes should read "Psalm 82:1 Hebrew elohim, mighty ones; that is, the judges
Psalm 82:6 Hebrew elohim, mighty ones; that is, the judges"

Try again. Or maybe you can stick to the topic and actually address the issue of the nephilim.
What?
So your problem is that you think the sons of god/ other gods are eternal?
Where in the bible does it say that anyone BUT God, YHWH, is eternal ??
Dying like men ( mortals) makes sense ONLY if these were NOT men.
Again with the red herrings. You can't defend the angel-hybrid theory so you go with this theory, which originated with a contemporary source (and the Mormons love him for this BTW). Fact is, he is reading a lot into the text in order to peddle books to college freshmen.

The angels preceded creation (Job 38:7, ironically). They have a beginning but they are eternal beings. I thought you studied this?

It makes sense in the context that these men thought themselves above men. BTW the saints are to judge the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3), not the other way around.
God's grace is not cheap; it's free.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#41

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:45 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
SoCalExile wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:Yes, knock off the appeals to authority, and listen to PaulSacramento, because he's taken theology classes.
Not sure if you are being fictitious or not Rick but I do NOT profess to be an authority simply because of I have my Masters.
I haven't even quote any scholar or linked any article.
I have simply shown what the bible actually says and mentioned that it is well know by scholars.
Then why did you bring up your degree?

You're a man of contradictions.
Context son:

What I said:
I also think that you may be forgetting that I have a Masters in Theology and I can assure you these things ARE studied and are discussed and that, historically, it is not and never has been as clear cut as you are implying.
As a matter of fact, the ancient writings bare witness to that.
I brought up my degree to show that these things ARE discussed and studied and NOT dismissed.
Which a mere mortal like myself is thus unqualified to comment on. LOL

ETA: "ancient writings" i.e. NOT the bible. So what your saying is that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is a lie. Good job, you've undermined yourself.
God's grace is not cheap; it's free.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#42

Post by RickD » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:50 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:Yes, knock off the appeals to authority, and listen to PaulSacramento, because he's taken theology classes.
Not sure if you are being fictitious or not Rick but I do NOT profess to be an authority simply because of I have my Masters.
I haven't even quote any scholar or linked any article.
I have simply shown what the bible actually says and mentioned that it is well know by scholars.
I guess my sarcasm wasn't obvious enough.

:lol:

I was just trying to lighten the mood. You can cut the tension with a knife.

SoCal,

Please be nice to PaulS. It's bad enough that he's wrong in this thread, you don't need to attack him. :mrgreen:
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SoCalExile (Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:50 am)
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#43

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:54 am

You know what, if you are gonna be silly I am not going to bother.

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#44

Post by RickD » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:57 am

PaulSacramento wrote:You know what, if you are gonna be silly I am not going to bother.
y[-(

I'd quit too, if I had to argue your side of this. :lol:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

#45

Post by SoCalExile » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:59 am

RickD wrote:
SoCal,

Please be nice to PaulS. It's bad enough that he's wrong in this thread, you don't need to attack him. :mrgreen:
What's that about sticks and heinies?
God's grace is not cheap; it's free.

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