Physical evil

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IceMobster
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Physical evil

#1

Post by IceMobster » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:35 pm

Physical evil is the "question" I could have never answered. I say physical, because there is the other type of evil (moral) which is caused by people's actions and I do not "have a problem" with that one.

So, considering Christian philosophy/theology, there is only one life each of us get. I wish not to share pictures of infants born with genetic disorders or other complications (unless you really want me to...) but they reminded me of this physical evil...

The theology professor who mentioned these two types of evil explained there is no good explanation except the analogy where people are stones and God is the sculptor turning us from meaningless stones to awe inspiring sculptures. Of course, in order for that finished work to happen, forceful removing of certain parts of the stone is required.

It is a nice analogy, but it left me unsatisfied. Like, what wrong deed (except for the original sin) did the child do to deserve such fate? I realize none of us deserve heaven and I am not implying so. I realize, because of the original sin, physical evil can very well be some sort of punishment, but why was I or some other sinner not "chosen" to die such a death instead it was that particular person?

You see, those who believe in cyclical death and life do, obviously, not have a problem with it since there is an explanation, but those who do not have are faced with the problem...
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

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Re: Physical evil

#2

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:20 pm

Hi IceMobster
I wish not to share pictures of infants born with genetic disorders or other complications (unless you really want me to...) but they reminded me of this physical evil...
Why do you consider such things evil?
I realize none of us deserve heaven and I am not implying so. I realize, because of the original sin, physical evil can very well be some sort of punishment, but why was I or some other sinner not "chosen" to die such a death instead it was that particular person?
It seems you consider physical death in this life to be a bad or evil thing and please correct me if I am wrong, but it leads me to question why is physical death evil from your point of view?

Sorry for asking questions in reply to a question, but I think I need an understanding of your position first.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Physical evil

#3

Post by IceMobster » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:56 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Why do you consider such things evil?
They are unjust. Physical evil is when people are born with a disability in broad sense of the word. Some are, of course not even born (they die before they are born) or die some time later due to a genetic disease.
Now, since there is ONLY ONE LIFE for any human, how do you call God Justice after that?
Danieltwotwenty wrote: It seems you consider physical death in this life to be a bad or evil thing and please correct me if I am wrong, but it leads me to question why is physical death evil from your point of view?
No. I consider physical death of infants caused by nature (which was dictated by God) evil and unjust since every person gets one life only. That way, you and me get a chance of achieving God's mercy and enter heaven (let us ignore the Calvinistic predestination and stuff), whilst those who died such a death understood nothing and entered directly to heaven (or not? Due to the original sin they deserve hell rather, no?). So, we got a chance and they did not. Why?
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

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Re: Physical evil

#4

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:24 pm

Thank you for your reply
They are unjust. Physical evil is when people are born with a disability in broad sense of the word. Some are, of course not even born (they die before they are born) or die some time later due to a genetic disease.
Now, since there is ONLY ONE LIFE for any human, how do you call God Justice after that?
I am a little confused by the ONLY ONE LIFE part, surely if God exists then this is not the only life. I will explain my position further below.

No. I consider physical death of infants caused by nature (which was dictated by God) evil and unjust since every person gets one life only. That way, you and me get a chance of achieving God's mercy and enter heaven (let us ignore the Calvinistic predestination and stuff), whilst those who died such a death understood nothing and entered directly to heaven (or not? Due to the original sin they deserve hell rather, no?). So, we got a chance and they did not. Why?
I am a purgatorial universalist open to possibly annihilationism, so I don't believe in hell as a permanent place, I see it more as a cleansing and refining fire, I hope and believe that all will be reconciled back through Christ. For me death is not evil or wrong, to me it is simply a change of states of being. I do understand why you would see it as evil and unfair if you viewed the afterlife as you do or even as some Christians do, but really we do not know what happens after we die in this life, the Bible is pretty vague on it and open to interpretation. So if we don't really know, how can we make judgements on whether death is evil or not? I don't think we can.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Physical evil

#5

Post by melanie » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:06 am

I don't think death is evil.
It's inevitable of this life cycle, a fate we all face.
I can reconcile death.
Suffering is much harder to understand.
I take my dog for a walk everyday and I see severely handicapped men on my walk most days as their carers take them out for a walk and get them out and about.
It's sad and confronting to see individuals who have never had the chance to live out their lives in the manner in which they were meant to be.
This also hits close to home with my sister.
It certainly seems fair. Unjust even.
Which I think icemobster was touching on.
If we are given just one life, why do some people through no fault of their own have such a crap hand. Why is this 'one life' a sentence none of us would wish on our worst enemies?? Whilst others are given a silver spoon. Sometimes leading to a life of selfishness and excess.
There seems to be no grace through this suffering, some are too handicapped to ever learn any lessons.
Sometimes I think bad things happen. Not because God ordained it or caused it. But because it's a natural progression of life.
Disease, disabilities, illness and defects are a natural illustration of life. Albeit unfair. Every species suffers from such and we are no different.
Every illness and/or defect is not at the hand of God but a result of what we call 'life'
Bad genetics, bad circumstances, or just bad luck.

God gives light and sustains.
But he does not micro manage every circumstance. This life offers the journey that unfolds.
This life is not heaven nor meant to be without suffering. This is not uptopia, it awaits.
God doesn't cause suffering in this life, He himself went through tremendous suffering and anguish.
We pass through this existence to gain knowledge and wisdom into the next.
It is our own disadvantage and weakness that judges hardship in this life as a sign of godliness, God stands by and is with His children in all hardship.
Faith is what binds us
Last edited by melanie on Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Physical evil

#6

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:20 am

IceMobster wrote:Physical evil is the "question" I could have never answered. I say physical, because there is the other type of evil (moral) which is caused by people's actions and I do not "have a problem" with that one.
I'm not sure we can call physical ailment truly evil except in some metaphoric sense. Nonetheless, re-read over John 9. Your thought that such is due to sin, is similar to what the disciples thought. Yet, Jesus confronts and dismisses such wrong notions head on.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Physical evil

#7

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:29 am

Some verses Nick Vujicic likes:

Jeremiah 10:11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn-1j5QWsAM
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Physical evil

#8

Post by Jac3510 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:49 am

IceMobster wrote:Physical evil is the "question" I could have never answered. I say physical, because there is the other type of evil (moral) which is caused by people's actions and I do not "have a problem" with that one.

So, considering Christian philosophy/theology, there is only one life each of us get. I wish not to share pictures of infants born with genetic disorders or other complications (unless you really want me to...) but they reminded me of this physical evil...

The theology professor who mentioned these two types of evil explained there is no good explanation except the analogy where people are stones and God is the sculptor turning us from meaningless stones to awe inspiring sculptures. Of course, in order for that finished work to happen, forceful removing of certain parts of the stone is required.

It is a nice analogy, but it left me unsatisfied. Like, what wrong deed (except for the original sin) did the child do to deserve such fate? I realize none of us deserve heaven and I am not implying so. I realize, because of the original sin, physical evil can very well be some sort of punishment, but why was I or some other sinner not "chosen" to die such a death instead it was that particular person?

You see, those who believe in cyclical death and life do, obviously, not have a problem with it since there is an explanation, but those who do not have are faced with the problem...
May I first suggest looking at John 9:3.

Outside of that, I'm glad you accept the notion of physical evil. As you've seen in this thread, a lot of Christians these days don't, and that's unfortunate. But that's another argument for another day. To your point, I think there are only two possible responses.

The first is that physical evil is a positive demonstration that the unmoved mover has no interest in our good. If God is as Aristotle described, then we're no more surprised by privations to the natural order than we are chips and scratches in stones. Stuff "just happens." But if we are to propose that God does care (in some sense of the word), and I think we have excellent reasons to think that is the case, then the only reasons I can think of are the biblical ones. Mankind, in some sense, has "corrupted" himself and obviously nature, and that says something about the relationship between mankind and nature. So the biblical hope is for a new creation with that corruption removed, and thus you have in very bare outlines a salvation history sketched, or at least implied.

So the short answer, then, would be that we live in a broken world, and in a broken world, things break. Nobody necessarily deserves the physical evil that they suffer (although they may in any given case). The very fact that they suffer this or that evil is simply evidence that things are not as they should be (and notice the intentionality in that word "should"--it presumes an order that has gone awry), and that, in turn, suggests (if God is good) that things will one day be as they should be. So the whole thing will ultimately demonstrate God's glory, for the greater the evil overcome, the greater the Overcomer. And He promises to make full restitution for all evils suffered unjustly, and that shows His grace and goodness all the more.

Hope that helps some!
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Physical evil

#9

Post by melanie » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:10 am

Kurieuo wrote:
IceMobster wrote:Physical evil is the "question" I could have never answered. I say physical, because there is the other type of evil (moral) which is caused by people's actions and I do not "have a problem" with that one.
I'm not sure we can call physical ailment truly evil except in some metaphoric sense. Nonetheless, re-read over John 9. Your thought that such is due to sin, is similar to what the disciples thought. Yet, Jesus confronts and dismisses such wrong notions head on.
I have been given an insight different to most.
It gives an understanding into the unknown. What may occur in the minds of the suffering.
Unfortunately sanity or normality can be sacrificed at the hands of what is understandable.
To personally watch someone so consumed by anguish and paranoia, that they are being watched and followed. So much that their delusion causes them to carry a weapon, when their minds are so consumed by a reality that differs from what is real but to them it is their world what can occur is frightening.
Mental illness is a prison cell.
They do not ask for it, but yet history paints them as our most dangerous. When they are your mother, friend and sister empathy is really the only option. Because you know who they were before the illness.
History only remembers them for their deeds.
It's not black or white
Never has been
The most frightening criminals in history have had major mental illnesses.
Normal people don't act out abnormally.
Perhaps our biggest monsters are infact our biggest sufferers. It's very difficult to understand perpetrators in such a vunerable light.
I believe that God sees each of us in our most perfect state, how He created us to be.

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Re: Physical evil

#10

Post by Philip » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:51 am

I believe that God sees each of us in our most perfect state, how He created us to be.
God sees us as we truly ARE. Positionally, and only for Christians, He sees us as we one day will be. But he also clearly sees everyone as they truly are, and knows every evil thought or hidden motivation. But He also knows perfectly those who choose evil from their own selfish desires, as opposed to those who commit evil acts that springs from an illness of their mind, for which they cannot control, nor are they responsible for.

I've spent many years of time trying to help a friend with severe mental illness - a man who becomes very dangerous if off his meds long. My uncle was so severely mentally ill that he was long institutionalized (and died there). He saw spirits, constantly claimed all manner of vile things about his mother, and even killed a fellow patient that had constantly picked on him. Awareness of something wrong was apparent when he was but a child. The interesting question is, what level of this illness is a spiritual attack? Are some severely evil people possessed? They were in Jesus' time - so why not now? But there is a difference between oppression and possession. And most may simply have an illness. Because, would spiritual oppression get better with medicines designed for a PHYSICAL brain? I've seen a person so severely manic that they might have killed a person. And yet, when adequately medicated, the person is the most docile and friendly one you'd ever meet - a real-life Jekll/Hyde.

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Re: Physical evil

#11

Post by melanie » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:32 am

You have mentioned previously Philip that you know people with mental illness. Your care and compassion is obvious
I think though that this discussion doesn't just negate to those we know but the many who are unknown.
And they are many
Those most prevalent are homeless, Unemployed, outsiders, addicts and the forgotten that are either mentally or intectually impaired.
Can I mention again,
Those in the most need. are the quickest to be forgotten.

Just wanting to highlight the intectually and psychiatrically struggling
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Re: Physical evil

#12

Post by melanie » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:33 am

.
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Re: Physical evil

#13

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:55 am

Physical evil is a fact of THIS life, of living in a fallen world.
Due to genetic and environmental factors of this fallen world.
I guess your issue is WHy would God allow physical evil and to answer that, a question must be asked:
Is this a emotional or intellectual issue with you?

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Re: Physical evil

#14

Post by melanie » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:08 am

Are they exclusive Paul?

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Re: Physical evil

#15

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:49 am

melanie wrote:Are they exclusive Paul?
Very much so.

The emotional problem with evil, any type of evil is one thing.
The intellectual problem of evil is easy to deal with of course and that is why skeptics and unbelievers don't really fall into that category, simply because it is quite easy to "justify" God allowing evil.
Emotionally, that is another matter, since one is hard pressed to find "justification" in a picture of a baby drowned in a tsunami or born without an arm or something like that.
Of course, in a world of pure randomness and no meaning, one can ask why anyone should be bothered by those things anyways, right?
The universe cares not about us at all.
The simply fact that we DO have problems with things not being "right" or "fair" or "just" does indeed speak volumes BUT not in the direction of atheism though.
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