Jesus!

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RickD
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Re: Jesus!

#61

Post by RickD » Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:54 am

ACB,

Either salvation is by grace, through faith in Christ, or it's not. By saying one must not reject the doctrine of the Trinity, in order to be saved, then that adds something to "by grace through faith".

Jac wasn't trying to argue with you. He was showing you where your point leads. Whenever we add to faith in Christ as the way through which God gives us eternal life, then it's adding to the gospel, something that's not required.
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Jac3510 (Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:56 am)
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Jesus!

#62

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:55 am

Saying you're not trying to be argumentative and that maybe you could be wrong and that you aren't twisting a Scripture doesn't mean that you are then allowed to turn around and twist Scripture.

You said,
let's say your at church and the preacher in his sermon was teaching on the trinity and you felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit to be saved but you could not accept the trinity? I'm not sure a person could be saved.
Intentionally or not, you've tied belief in the Trinity (or at a minimum the non-rejection of it) to the possibility of salvation.

That's wrong. There's nothing to think about. There's nothing to consider. The Trinity is simply not, and cannot be taken to be, a salvific matter.

edit:

What Rick said! :)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Jesus!

#63

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:14 am

I did not say I was totally right about it. I was just trying to get us to consider something and I wasn't trying to be dogmatic about it. I understand we are saved by grace through believing in Jesus. I was trying to get us to consider that if we doubt God's word it might effect us being saved. It was just something to consider. I'm not dogmatic about it.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Jesus!

#64

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:24 am

*le sigh*

"I'm not saying I know for sure than John 3:16 is wrong. I'm just trying to get us to consider it. That's all. Not being dogmatic. I just want us to consider that if we doubt the Trinity then maybe we aren't saved even if John 3:16 doesn't say anything about it. That's all. Sure, I believe John 3:16, but maybe, just maybe, it's not really completely, 100% right. Maybe it's just 98% right, ya know? That's all. I'm not arguing! Just saying that maybe John 3:16 is necessarily always right all the time." ~ACB
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abelcainsbrother (Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:31 am)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Jesus!

#65

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:49 am

Romans 10:9

John 3:16

1st John 2:22-23

1st John 4:1-3.

Yeah,I think ya'll are right
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Jesus!

#66

Post by RickD » Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:50 am

"*le sigh*"?

Is that a French sigh? Pepe le Pew maybe? y:-?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sVkbw2mf51c
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Jesus!

#67

Post by tunde1992 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:45 am

By grace through faith in christ, you mean the Christ that died for our sins and rose on the third day, correct? Which naturally means cults like christian science, or jw would be excluded ?
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
-matthew 6:33

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Re: Jesus!

#68

Post by crochet1949 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:24 pm

The Holy Spirit has an Important Role In our salvation. The Holy Spirit is the part of the Godhead that convicts us of our sins. As has been previously stated -- Without the Godhead / trinity / there is No salvation to either accept or reject.

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Re: Jesus!

#69

Post by RickD » Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:34 pm

tunde1992 wrote:By grace through faith in christ, you mean the Christ that died for our sins and rose on the third day, correct? Which naturally means cults like christian science, or jw would be excluded ?
I would say that if one believes in the wrong Christ, then one doesn't have eternal life.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Jesus!

#70

Post by DBowling » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:43 am

I think I'm with Rick and Jac on this one.

Scripture clearly teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
So that has to be the foundation of the discussion.

The nagging question in the back of my mind as I've followed this discussion is...
Is it possible to believe in the right Jesus and believe in the wrong God?
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus... because he is God... not instead of God.

Now it is a given that none of us has a complete understanding of the true nature of God. It is simply impossible for finite creatures to fully grasp the infinite.
However, Scripture does reveal accurate truths about God to finite people.
So through the work of the Holy Spirit it is possible for even a child to have an adequate understanding of who God is and who Jesus is.

Also I think it is important to remember that we are not saved by our ability to pass some theological test, we are saved when we place our trust in the person of Jesus Christ.

Sidestepping for the moment the question of the Trinitarian model (which I do believe BTW)
The question that this thread has popping around in my head is...
Is it possible to reject fundamental truths about God as revealed in Scripture and still believe in the "right Jesus"?

In Christ

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Re: Jesus!

#71

Post by Storyteller » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:37 am

As most of you know I am fairly new to Christ and new to Scripture. I'm not sure I can actually explain the Trinity. I see it as God the Father, Existence. Our Creator, Christ, the living God, our Saviour. Follow Him, trust Him, learn who God is through Him, Holy Spirit. The conviction of God. That inner voice guiding you.

Personally, I believe I am saved. He promised that any who have faith Him will have eternal life. The more I read (studying the Beatitudes right now) the more I am convinced so many people make it so much more complicated than it is.

Isn't the whole point of accepting Christ about salvation and learning, growing?
If belief, or even understanding, the Trinity (or anything else) was importantto salvation, surely it would be explicitly stated?

Part of the joy of all this for me, is knowing I am saved, safe, secure, loved and free to grow in Christ, free to reallyget to know Him. Build a relationship.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Jesus!

#72

Post by Philip » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:28 am

OK, let's pose this question again, about the Trinity, but in a different sort of way. And, let me preface this by saying that I definitely am opposed to all "Jesus-plus" asserted routes to salvation. So I"m posing this question to set up a discussion for a logical flow of how to correctly parse this. So, let me set it up a bit:

People rejected God all day long, around the world, before Jesus was born into the world, and thus died unsaved. Now, those with the faith of Abraham, before ever hearing of Christ, believed in God and of His promises as they had been revealed, and were saved, through faith. And Jesus, also fully God, is also part of His Trinity. Belief in John 3:16, at a minimum, shows the necessity of belief in the Jesus of history, Who descended from the Father. So, if, inexplicably, one believed Jesus was God, but that the Father was not, could not believe in the Jesus of John 3:16.

Now, the Holy Spirit is also fully God and part of God's Trinity. So, if you reject the Trinity - that is, ANY Person of the Trinity, are you not also rejecting God as He IS? Asked another way: To believe in a Jesus who is not ALSO a fellow Person (and Son) of the Father AND of the Holy Spirit - well, what does that mean? Is that belief in a FALSE Jesus? So, the question that needs to be resolved, for many, is can you reject the Scriptural teaching that the Holy Spirit is also fully God, while also having faith in Jesus, and be saved - or does "Jesus-ONLY faith negate that one accepts that ALL Persons of the Trinity are God? Can you reject ANY one of them and be said to have TRUE, saving faith? Or is it a matter of God's requirement of having faith in Jesus will LEAD to an understanding of the Holy Spirit is also God?

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Re: Jesus!

#73

Post by Katabole » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:50 pm

Philip wrote:Now, the Holy Spirit is also fully God and part of God's Trinity. So, if you reject the Trinity - that is, ANY Person of the Trinity, are you not also rejecting God as He IS? Asked another way: To believe in a Jesus who is not ALSO a fellow Person (and Son) of the Father AND of the Holy Spirit - well, what does that mean? Is that belief in a FALSE Jesus? So, the question that needs to be resolved, for many, is can you reject the Scriptural teaching that the Holy Spirit is also fully God, while also having faith in Jesus, and be saved - or does "Jesus-ONLY faith negate that one accepts that ALL Persons of the Trinity are God? Can you reject ANY one of them and be said to have TRUE, saving faith? Or is it a matter of God's requirement of having faith in Jesus will LEAD to an understanding of the Holy Spirit is also God?
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

The manifestation of Jesus in the flesh is by the will of the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit that conceived Him.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

I believe you can't have just one without the other two as they are always together. The best example would be probably be Jesus' baptism where you have Jesus in the river being baptized, the Father speaks from heaven and the Spirit descends on Him like a dove.

In my opinion, John 3:16 is sufficient in its simplicity. When you believe in Christ, as I did many years ago, and many of us do, you believe Christ is God. You believe Christ is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent and that He is an exact representation of the Godhead or Trinity; the exact image of the invisible Father with the power of the invisible Holy Spirit, regardless of whether you understand the Trinity or not.

Romans 10:9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Romans 10:9 adds the condition (confess with your mouth) and (believe that God raised Him from the dead). That is still part of believing from John 3:16. How many people claim they really believe something but refuse to confess it?

For example the Eunuch in Acts 8. In verse 37 he says, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God".

It was certainly reading the Word that moved him to ask the questions to Philip. When Philip gave him the answers, he was convinced it was true, was baptized, believed and confessed it with own his mouth.

I don't think it has to be any more complex than that.
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you know you gotta serve somebody. Bob Dylan

Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37

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Re: Jesus!

#74

Post by Philip » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:27 pm

Kat: "When you believe in Christ, as I did many years ago, and many of us do, you believe Christ is God. You believe Christ is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent and that He is an exact representation of the Godhead or Trinity; the exact image of the invisible Father with the power of the invisible Holy Spirit, regardless of whether you understand the Trinity or not.".
The portion in bold is the question. And so, Katabole appears to believe that one can be saved, by believing Jesus is Who He said He is (The Son that is part of and also fully God), but that understanding that the Holy Spirit is also God isn't necessary ("whether your understand the Trinity or not") for salvation. Because if you do not understand the Trinity, then you won't believe the Holy Spirit is also God. So, what remains is the same issue: Can you have saving faith in Christ without an understanding that the Holy Spirit is also God, as are the Father and the Son? Because some do not believe in the Holy Spirit is a person or that He is God - more like they believe He is God's enacting power that streams from Him. So, is rejecting - or not knowing/understanding - that the Holy Spirit is God - is that not a rejection of the God of Scripture? Because, remember, we can't believe in just ANY cult's version of who they assert Jesus is, and still be saved. So how could that very same issue be possible concerning what one believes about the Holy Spirit?

Admittedly, a correct Scriptural understanding of the Holy Spirit is probably the weakest part of most Christians' knowledge base. And that's likely a failing of many churches and pastors to spend adequate time on explaining it.

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Re: Jesus!

#75

Post by RickD » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:37 pm

Philip wrote:
Kat: "When you believe in Christ, as I did many years ago, and many of us do, you believe Christ is God. You believe Christ is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent and that He is an exact representation of the Godhead or Trinity; the exact image of the invisible Father with the power of the invisible Holy Spirit, regardless of whether you understand the Trinity or not.".
The portion in bold is the question. And so, Katabole appears to believe that one can be saved, by believing Jesus is Who He said He is (The Son that is part of and also fully God), but that understanding that the Holy Spirit is also God isn't necessary ("whether your understand the Trinity or not") for salvation. Because if you do not understand the Trinity, then you won't believe the Holy Spirit is also God. So, what remains is the same issue: Can you have saving faith in Christ without an understanding that the Holy Spirit is also God, as are the Father and the Son? Because some do not believe in the Holy Spirit is a person or that He is God - more like they believe He is God's enacting power that streams from Him. So, is rejecting - or not knowing/understanding - that the Holy Spirit is God - is that not a rejection of the God of Scripture? Because, remember, we can't believe in just ANY cult's version of who they assert Jesus is, and still be saved. So how could that very same issue be possible concerning what one believes about the Holy Spirit?

Admittedly, a correct Scriptural understanding of the Holy Spirit is probably the weakest part of most Christians' knowledge base. And that's likely a failing of many churches and pastors to spend adequate time on explaining it.
An outright rejection of the Holy Spirit being God, is one thing. But not understanding what the Trinity says about the person of the Holy Spirit, is another. With that said, and without scripture saying otherwise, I'd still have to say that it's faith in Christ through which we are saved. Not through proper understanding or acceptance that the Holy Spirit is God.

And to add to that, anyone who is born again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, should come to the realization that the Holy Spirit is God. Unless he is just outright ignoring the Holy Spirit in him, testifying that He is God.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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