Jesus!

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Jesus!

#1

Post by IceMobster » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:38 pm

If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God (which is supported by Scripture on various places)?
Why does Jesus not say that he is God anywhere in the Scripture?

Bonus question: I have no idea what Holy Spirit's role is in either the Trinity or the world, so explain. I see HS as utterly useless. Even though I know it is obviously not the teaching of the Trinity, I see HS as just a name for God's work in the world. So, yeah, give me your best concerning this 3 questions.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

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Re: Jesus!

#2

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:30 pm

IceMobster wrote:If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God (which is supported by Scripture on various places)?
Why does Jesus not say that he is God anywhere in the Scripture?

Bonus question: I have no idea what Holy Spirit's role is in either the Trinity or the world, so explain. I see HS as utterly useless. Even though I know it is obviously not the teaching of the Trinity, I see HS as just a name for God's work in the world. So, yeah, give me your best concerning this 3 questions.
Jesus lived a sinless life,unlike we can and so he prayed.

Jehovah. For you. Get out a bible and follow along
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qT2wpjS7SU

John 8:58
Exodus 3:13-14

John 15:26
John 16:13-16
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Jesus!

#3

Post by IceMobster » Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:41 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
IceMobster wrote:If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God (which is supported by Scripture on various places)?
Why does Jesus not say that he is God anywhere in the Scripture?

Bonus question: I have no idea what Holy Spirit's role is in either the Trinity or the world, so explain. I see HS as utterly useless. Even though I know it is obviously not the teaching of the Trinity, I see HS as just a name for God's work in the world. So, yeah, give me your best concerning this 3 questions.
Jesus lived a sinless life,unlike we can and so he prayed.
ACB, how does this answer any of my questions?
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

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Re: Jesus!

#4

Post by B. W. » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:11 am

IceMobster wrote:If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God (which is supported by Scripture on various places)?
Why does Jesus not say that he is God anywhere in the Scripture?

Bonus question: I have no idea what Holy Spirit's role is in either the Trinity or the world, so explain. I see HS as utterly useless. Even though I know it is obviously not the teaching of the Trinity, I see HS as just a name for God's work in the world. So, yeah, give me your best concerning this 3 questions.
You mentioned the Trinity and in that is your answer. Philippians 2:5-10, John 1:1-3

And yes Jesus claimed he is God in the bible, by the titles Son of Man and Son of God...

As well as in: John 20:28, John 5:23, John 9:35-38, John 14:9
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Re: Jesus!

#5

Post by IceMobster » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:40 am

B. W. wrote:
IceMobster wrote:If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God (which is supported by Scripture on various places)?
Why does Jesus not say that he is God anywhere in the Scripture?

Bonus question: I have no idea what Holy Spirit's role is in either the Trinity or the world, so explain. I see HS as utterly useless. Even though I know it is obviously not the teaching of the Trinity, I see HS as just a name for God's work in the world. So, yeah, give me your best concerning this 3 questions.
You mentioned the Trinity and in that is your answer. Philippians 2:5-10, John 1:1-3

And yes Jesus claimed he is God in the bible, by the titles Son of Man and Son of God...

As well as in: John 20:28, John 5:23, John 9:35-38, John 14:9
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I don't see how the Trinity answers why Jesus prayed to God since they are of the same nature. Like, it makes no sense to me even though I can see how it makes sense to you.

Philippians 2:5-10 - see what I am talking about? " 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name," makes it look like they are two different personas (which they are, which makes no sense) and how is it the one and the same God if His nature is split into two personas? This leads to polytheism big time, especially when throughout Scripture we can find Son being God and Father being God and them having a relationship.
Then, out of the blue, comes the Holy Spirit. Like, yeah, what?
I don't see how John 1:1-3 proves any of this. Fine, there was a Word and it became God, still doesn't explain the what I asked above.

John 9:35-39, John 14:9 and John 20:24-29 do confirm so, thank you for that.
However, how does John 5:19-24 confirm that?
19 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all that he himself is doing; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

What is with the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son? They have the same nature, they both are able to judge, they are both God, are they not? So, how come judgment is "reserved" to the Son?
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

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Re: Jesus!

#6

Post by melanie » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:49 am

IceMobster I guarantee my reponse will get some interest :ewink: :mrgreen:
Great questions btw.
Jesus did refer to The Father many times.
He prayed to Him, asked for counsel, for guidance and if possible the burden be taken from Him, before His crucifixion.
Which I think is a beautiful illustration of Jesus' humanity.
But He also referred to Himself as the 'I Am'.
That was when the Pharisees got their knickers in a twist because that statement by way of Old Testament terminology he was referring to himself as God.
When Jesus told people 'you are forgiven' He took upon Himself the forgiver of Sins. Which was also seen as blasphemy at the time.

He said The Father is greater than I... and then prayed to Him.
But yet He claimed to be the Alpha and Omega.
Beginning and end.
There are many who claim that Jesus gave up His divinity when he became human, that he remained both or was never divine.

I think He dwelt with the Father from the beginning of time.
Beyound our comprehension but through Him everything was created.
The Father through whom His essence is life and light and Jesus the creative expression of such.
I believe that Our Father is the brilliance of all that exists.
He is light and love.
The essence of everything.
We see the architecture of creation through Jesus but behind the building blocks is the foundation of life.
All through scripture we see a Father and Son relationship.
God and Jesus.
Many will explain this away by anthropomorphic expression. But the nature of reality is based on lineage and family.

We have a duality of Father and Son.
In perfect unison.
To use an analogy.., When a king rules a kingdom through and with His Son, giving all glory to Him, Then together they reign, without conflict of power because they are united in all that they do.
Each reflecting the purpose of each other.
Which is why Jesus prayed to His Father and instructed us to do so, but was also our Divine Prince.

I think the trinity is a flawed concept expressed nowhere in scripture. Except through debatable scripture which has been proven by majority to be an added extract. The Holy Spirit is not a person, nowhere is the Holy Spirit given a name, a position on the heavenly throne. I in no way am taking away from the role of the Holy Spirit as it is the very working and essence of God. The expression of omnipresence and omnipotence.
The living, power of God that dwells within.
But not another person per say.

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Re: Jesus!

#7

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:54 am

Jesus prayed to the Father because He is not the Father. The Father is the Father and the Son is the Son. The Son loves and wishes to be in communion with the Father, and so He prays to Him. Moreover, Jesus is a man, and so while He is ontologically equal with the Father and Holy Spirit in virtue of His divine nature, He is inferior to both the Father and the Spirit in virtue of His human nature. When Jesus prayed, then, He was aligning His human will with the divine will, so that He could say He does nothing He does not see the Father do and so that everything He did, He did at the direction of the Father.

The Holy Spirit played an essential part in the early ministry of Jesus Christ. The HS filled Jesus, empowered Him, led Him, etc. In fact, it was the Holy Spirit that Jesus was filled with, by which He exemplified divine power in His ministry, that He gave to His disciples and to all believers. So while Jesus could have certainly have done anything He wanted in virtue of His own divine nature, He chose to act in virtue of His human nature and for the Holy Spirit to act in and through Him. The result of that is that we, who are not divine, receive and act through the same Spirit that acted through Him.
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Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Jesus!

#8

Post by Storyteller » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:44 pm

He was a man, as well as God, so could, and did pray. To God, as a human. To Existence. Like we all should.

The Holy Spirit is the breath of God in your soul. Its something felt. That moves you, drives you, compels you to seek truth.
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Re: Jesus!

#9

Post by Nicki » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:20 pm

To me it's Jesus' statement 'Before Abraham was born, I am!' that was his most obvious claim to divinity. I think the Holy Spirit could possibly not be a person, were it not for Jesus' teaching that when he left he would send the Comforter, who is spoken of as a person and seems to be the Holy Spirit. Jesus was saying that his presence in us would be via the Holy Spirit. The HS might seem to be unnecessary to us but if he's part of (or maybe I shouldn't say part, Jac? - included in then) the Triune God that's just the way it is - we won't necessarily understand everything about the roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
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Re: Jesus!

#10

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:53 pm

IceMobster wrote:If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God (which is supported by Scripture on various places)?
Why does Jesus not say that he is God anywhere in the Scripture?

Bonus question: I have no idea what Holy Spirit's role is in either the Trinity or the world, so explain. I see HS as utterly useless. Even though I know it is obviously not the teaching of the Trinity, I see HS as just a name for God's work in the world. So, yeah, give me your best concerning this 3 questions.
Let me put forward questions that abstract from the specifics of why or how.

Question 1) If God exists, then is it logically possible (i.e., there is nothing contradictory) for God to come down to Earth, be born and dwell amongst in human form?

Question 2) If one positively affirms (1), then Who is keeping things running while God gives Himself over to human nature and visits Earth in human form?

Now, to the first, it seems easy to answer that God could enter into His creation however God liked. God created it all, so evidently has immense power, so why not? The onus, it seems to me, is on an opposing position to bring forward good reasons why God could not ever enter into His creation in the form of a human baby who then grows into a man.

Given (1) is possible, now then, the universe still needs to keep running and be held together. Does God leave the helm of running our universe? Is such even possible of God to do? Really, I think if God were to leave the helm, then our whole world and created order would collapse in on itself. Since everything is absolutely dependent upon God. Therefore, God, if He comes in human form must somehow subsist in both human and divine forms.

I believe these two questions push one to entertain at least a duality in God of some sort, whether such be essential to God's nature or something God's creates within Himself. So then, how does the communion between such work, well, let theologians discuss and nut out.


Finally, there are questions to do with "Love" that I see add weight to the picture of God as revealed in Scripture and by Christ. That is, does "Love" really exist? If it does, then what is the source of "Love"? Now, many people will affirm love really does exist. And, if one believes in God, they'll readily claim God is love, meaning God is the source of all love. Yet, then without creation, can God really still love if there is no one to love?

I believe one can only legitimately respond "Yes" to this question (that God is love), provided they recognise that "true love" can only be had in relationship from one to another and account for such within God. Therefore, if God is love then God must necessarily be relational within who God is.

To have perfect love, one could say there needs to be 1) The Lover, 2) Beloved and 3) Carrier (of the love). And then, to be perfect, the Lover ought to also be loved by the Beloved, and indeed a pouring out upon the Carrier of such and vice-versa. Thus, Love becomes complete and perfect.

Now remove 1) The Lover, and you no longer can have the beloved and there is also no need for any "love" to be carried from Loved to Beloved. Remove 2) The Beloved, and now The Lover can't exist either for their needs to be a recipient of The Lover's love. Remove 3) And the love of the Lover will never reach the Beloved, indeed one must wonder what even this "love" is comprised of which is exchanged between The Lover and The Beloved if consists of nothing but "empty packets of data" and not even a packet.
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Re: Jesus!

#11

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:55 pm

Nicki wrote:The HS might seem to be unnecessary to us but if he's part of (or maybe I shouldn't say part, Jac? - included in then) the Triune God that's just the way it is - we won't necessarily understand everything about the roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Correct that the HS is not "a part of" God. The Person we call the HS is absolutely identical to the divine nature, and the divine nature is absolutely identical to the Person we call the HS. If He were a part of the nature, or if the nature was part of Him as our human nature is part of us but also shared by others, then either the nature would be divisible and could not be construed to be "God" in any meaningful sense of the word; or else the divine nature would be something possessed and thus again could not be construed to be "God" in any meaningful sense of the word.

Beyond such technicalities, to your point, we have to make sure that we don't attempt to answer the questions in the OP in terms of necessity. Which is to say, you are correct. For reasons I can't get into here, we cannot say what God must be like. I can't prove from reason alone that God must be three Persons who subsist in one essence. Reason alone can show that God, whatever He is, must be personal, that He must be Existence In Itself, and so on. But that same reason will also tell me that, ultimately, all of that language is ultimately analogical and that I can't say much of anything about God absolutely. My language is correct insofar as it goes--so it is true to say "God loves me" and "God exists"--but incorrect if I stop only at that language. For such language only points to a reality that I won't fully grasp until I see Him face to face (so to speak).

What that means is that we attempt to understand what God has said is actually the case as best we can. So based on what God has said, we realize that He is, in fact, three Persons who subsist in one essence. We understand that He is love and that He loves us and that He offers salvation to those who believe in Jesus Christ and so on. Such things are true! But in the end, there is a huge difference in being able to say the correct words about God in the correct order and even believing what those words mean in and of themselves, and really knowing in the deeper sense of the word "knowing" (i.e., the relational sense) God Himself. The former is only a picture of God painted by our finite minds. If we confuse it with God Himself, we're little more than idolaters. The latter is the invitation of both faith and reason to know the ineffible. Once we grasp enough truth that we believe what God has said about Him, then we can, through faith, know Him. And we know Him even then not because we learn new facts about Him but because He, in His goodness, reveals Himself to those who believe and trust. And if you have so known Him, then you know what I am saying (not in the sense of you can affirm its true, although that to, but rather you can point to an experiential knowledge of what I'm saying) in the depths of your soul. You just nod your head and say, "Yes, amen!" It's the idea that posters like Canuckster used to be getting at, I think when they would admonish people not to confuse their interpretation of Scripture with Scripture itself. It's the idea Jesus Himself was getting at when He admonished the pharisees for thinking that they could find eternal life in the words of the Torah rather than in the reality those words pointed to.

So bottom line: IceMobster or anyone else can certainly get answers to theoretical/philosophical questions about the nature of God. He clearly has a very deep misunderstanding of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and of Jesus' hypostatic union. But we have to be careful not to try to answer him in terms of what must be true, because in the end, these things are not true because they are logically necessary as much as they are simply because God has so decreed it, and our job is to understand what God has decreed--to put the ideas in the right order in our own minds--so that we can ultimately go beyond those ideas to the reality itself . . . not to go beyond rationality into irrational mysticism, but rather go to beyond rationality to the source of rationality, of truth, and of existence itself.
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Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Jesus!

#12

Post by Philip » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:13 pm

Just a suggestion - and its one I myself need to adhere more to - but when someone asks a relatively straight forward question, let's try to not bury him in words of a million paragraphs and technical verbiage. I think ICE's head must be swimming about right now.

As we are mortal and as also God is not fully comprehendible to us, His Trinity of persons within ONE God is not an easy thing to grasp. But it is verified comprehensively across Scripture!
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Re: Jesus!

#13

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:19 pm

Philip wrote:Just a suggestion - and its one I myself need to adhere more to - but when someone asks a relatively straight forward question, let's try to not bury him in words of a million paragraphs and technical verbiage. I think ICE's head must be swimming about right now.

As we are mortal and as also God is not fully comprehendible to us, His Trinity of persons within ONE God is not an easy thing to grasp. But it is verified comprehensively across Scripture!
Agreed! And so . . .
Storyteller wrote:He was a man, as well as God, so could, and did pray. To God, as a human. To Existence. Like we all should.

The Holy Spirit is the breath of God in your soul. Its something felt. That moves you, drives you, compels you to seek truth.
And . . .
Nicki wrote:To me it's Jesus' statement 'Before Abraham was born, I am!' that was his most obvious claim to divinity. I think the Holy Spirit could possibly not be a person, were it not for Jesus' teaching that when he left he would send the Comforter, who is spoken of as a person and seems to be the Holy Spirit. Jesus was saying that his presence in us would be via the Holy Spirit. The HS might seem to be unnecessary to us but if he's part of . . . the Triune God that's just the way it is - we won't necessarily understand everything about the roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Jesus!

#14

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:33 pm

IceMobster wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
IceMobster wrote:If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God (which is supported by Scripture on various places)?
Why does Jesus not say that he is God anywhere in the Scripture?

Bonus question: I have no idea what Holy Spirit's role is in either the Trinity or the world, so explain. I see HS as utterly useless. Even though I know it is obviously not the teaching of the Trinity, I see HS as just a name for God's work in the world. So, yeah, give me your best concerning this 3 questions.
Jesus lived a sinless life,unlike we can and so he prayed.
ACB, how does this answer any of my questions?
You asked if Jesus is God why did he pray? And I told you. Then you said Why does Jesus not say that he is God anywhere in scripture? And I gave you a song that if you got out your bible and followed along would prove biblically the divinity of Jesus. Then I gave you scriptures where Jesus claimed he is God,then scriptures about what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit. I just didn't go into great depth trying to explain the trinity because it is hard for even Christians to understand it,even though the trinity is biblical.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Jesus!

#15

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:27 am

Jac3510 wrote:Jesus prayed to the Father because He is not the Father. The Father is the Father and the Son is the Son. The Son loves and wishes to be in communion with the Father, and so He prays to Him. Moreover, Jesus is a man, and so while He is ontologically equal with the Father and Holy Spirit in virtue of His divine nature, He is inferior to both the Father and the Spirit in virtue of His human nature. When Jesus prayed, then, He was aligning His human will with the divine will, so that He could say He does nothing He does not see the Father do and so that everything He did, He did at the direction of the Father.

The Holy Spirit played an essential part in the early ministry of Jesus Christ. The HS filled Jesus, empowered Him, led Him, etc. In fact, it was the Holy Spirit that Jesus was filled with, by which He exemplified divine power in His ministry, that He gave to His disciples and to all believers. So while Jesus could have certainly have done anything He wanted in virtue of His own divine nature, He chose to act in virtue of His human nature and for the Holy Spirit to act in and through Him. The result of that is that we, who are not divine, receive and act through the same Spirit that acted through Him.

Pretty much right on the button.

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