Catholicism Questions

Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 100 times
Been liked: 143 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#241

Post by Byblos » Thu May 19, 2016 6:25 am

crochet1949 wrote:Do the Popes and Bishops know they are just as fallible as the rest of us?
Yes. Aside from confession which they all do, in fact many popes including the current one frequently and publicly ask us to pray for them.
crochet1949 wrote:No church makes Anyone Infallible.
I totally agree.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 21894
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 207 times
Been liked: 1137 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#242

Post by RickD » Thu May 19, 2016 7:01 am

Note to self:

Baptism saves.

Got it.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


The Flat Earth Society has members all around the globe.



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 100 times
Been liked: 143 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#243

Post by Byblos » Thu May 19, 2016 7:02 am

RickD wrote:Note to self:

Baptism saves.

Got it.
If your heart so desires. :mrgreen:

Post edit:

And in case you missed it, here's what I said: "The Catholic church recognizes all forms of baptism as valid including baptism of the heart, by fire, and by desire."
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8741
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 420 times
Been liked: 663 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#244

Post by Philip » Thu May 19, 2016 8:47 am

Byblos: As for the rest of the links, I have no interest in debating such topics and even less interest in reading so-called 'sources'.
Well, those "so-called sources" are SCRIPTURE - a very specific and careful examination of what the Catholic Church teaches vs. what Scripture actually says and clearly reveals to be true. I can see why that might be a problem to those whom are determined to only swallow the Catholic Church koolaid! Because once a person has bought into the belief that there is some asserted/authorized descendancy that can not only break new "Scriptural" ground exists, but that can also clearly CONTRADICT established Scripture (which ended in the 1st Century), then NO Scripture in our Bibles will sway them otherwise.

For those of you who REALLY care, I'd advise you to read through the links. Either they will validate and give confidence to one's Catholic beliefs OR they will make them seriously question as to HOW or WHY of key Catholic teachings - particularly concerning Salvation - could actually be true! Are we to believe that men given the authority and inspiration to break new Scriptural teachings were given no absolutely clear and unmistakable mandate in SCRIPTURE???!!! And so unclear is this that a HUGE percentage of Christians - and I'm talking amongst those Scripturally literate - vehemently disagree, due to their comprehensive study of the Scripture that Catholics assert give such authority. Now, how is it that something supposedly so clear, WOULDN'T be to so many Christians around the world who take Scripture and its study extremely seriously? So, what is asserted to be a clear mandate by the Catholic Church, simply isn't so clear. In fact, it's not only not clear, but Scripture's plain wording and reading show the Catholic teaching of its church authority and Popes, to break new Scripture, directly CONTRADICTS Scripture. So, ignore the links, if you don't care/if you've already made up your mind.

And, BTW, what I showed the CC asserts about Salvation is no caricature, but a direct documented teaching by the church - spin it as one will.

EssentialSacrifice
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 854
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:19 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 119 times
Been liked: 66 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#245

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Thu May 19, 2016 9:02 am

So, ignore the links, if you don't care/if you've already made up your mind.
hasn't everybody ? at this point ?

you may love Byblos, as you say, but you sure got a harsh way of talkin it. :shakehead:
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 21894
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 207 times
Been liked: 1137 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#246

Post by RickD » Thu May 19, 2016 9:22 am

Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:Note to self:

Baptism saves.

Got it.
If your heart so desires. :mrgreen:

Post edit:

And in case you missed it, here's what I said: "The Catholic church recognizes all forms of baptism as valid including baptism of the heart, by fire, and by desire."
I didn't miss it. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant. Here, you said:
What does it take to be considered in the body of Christ? Baptism, that's it. Whether or not one must do something to stay in the body of Christ is moot and besides the point. And let's not get bogged down by what baptism is, by water, by immersion, infant, etc. The Catholic church recognizes all forms of baptism as valid including baptism of the heart, by fire, and by desire. In other words the body of Christ most certainly includes those who do not profess to be members of the Catholic Church. In fact, the Church does not make pronouncements one way or the other as to the status of anyone's salvation as this is God's decision and God's alone. The only definitive positive statements the church makes are related to saints. Otherwise, the belief is that ALL can be saved including those who never even heard the Gospel because God's desire can be known through the natural light of reason.
Maybe in Catholicism, being part of the body of Christ, isn't synonymous with being saved. Is that accurate?

As you already know, I believe the body of Christ is all believers who have trusted Christ. So to me, your quote says that the Catholic Church recognizes anyone who has been baptized, whichever way, is saved.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


The Flat Earth Society has members all around the globe.



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 100 times
Been liked: 143 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#247

Post by Byblos » Thu May 19, 2016 9:28 am

EssentialSacrifice wrote:
So, ignore the links, if you don't care/if you've already made up your mind.
hasn't everybody ? at this point ?

you may love Byblos, as you say, but you sure got a harsh way of talkin it. :shakehead:
It's fine, really. The subject matter tends to elicit a lot of emotions, as it should. It's all good.

Philip, think what you will also. As I said, I have neither the time nor the energy to click on links, read material and prepare proper responses for each and every point raised. That will literally consume way too much time I don't have to spare. And to keep stating 'clearly' and 'plainly' is neither clear nor plain for if it were we obviously would not be disagreeing. Like Rick said, we all interpret. We just don't agree. It is no secret that we disagree even on matters of salvation, nothing new there. If you or someone else want to discuss a specific point, fine, state it clearly and plainly. I will try to make some time for it as I have. But my brain can't handle more than one topic at a time. Besides, we all know where these discussions will lead, first to assurance and then to authority. And round and round we go ad infinitum.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 349 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#248

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu May 19, 2016 9:39 am

I don't think that baptism can = salvation.
I know a few people that were baptized but no longer believe in Christ, are atheists as a matter of fact.

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8741
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 420 times
Been liked: 663 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#249

Post by Philip » Thu May 19, 2016 9:43 am

Essential: you may love Byblos, as you say, but you sure got a harsh way of talkin it. :shakehead:
Essential, in what way have I personally attacked Byblos? It's not about HIM - or me. My focus is what is the TRUTH, and where is that found - in the teachings of men or in Scripture. Where the teachings of men and tradition contradict Scripture - well, that is were I am directing my criticism. So, instead of responding to the specifics, you're asserting I am attacking Byblos or Catholics PERSONALLY. I think most here know the difference. Yes, the criticism is direct, but I don't believe it to be unfair. And I, along with vast millions of non-Catholics reject these teachings as well - NOT based upon some teachings of their church or referring to some denomination's assertions, but by comparing what the Roman CC teaches as opposed to what Scripture says - HUGE difference. Appealing to a denomination's stance - ANY denomination - would only be to doing what I say that the Catholic Church has done - with likely similar results.

Anyone who has been on these boards any length of time knows that I stick to only criticizing the facts asserted. I ONLY ever criticize someone personally if they personally attack or are obviously rude. I have the same issues over belief with my Catholic in-laws in New England - all of whom I love dearly. So, it's important to realize the difference. At least I am bringing into the open what is often glossed over, or people don't want to discuss for fear they will offend someone. But those on this forum, I would hope, have a far more thicker skin. And I think Byblos obviously DOES - as he has answered with how he believes and does seem to realize that my strong questioning would be toward ANYONE asserting certain Catholic beliefs. And I really appreciate that - because I realize I can get intense over certain issues (wanna discuss Five Point Calvinism, LOL?). And really, I don't care about harmless traditions of various denominations - no fish on Fridays, sprinkle vs. immersion, or whatever. I care about key teachings that I believe to be harmful, or even dangerous, to one whom may falsely believe they are saved, but for incorrect understandings - or that perpetuate such. Or exhibiting false dependencies or focus on anyone (in heaven or on earth) other than Jesus. And I do this because I care about people and what impacts them - particularly if it has an eternal impact.

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 100 times
Been liked: 143 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#250

Post by Byblos » Thu May 19, 2016 9:47 am

Rick wrote: Maybe in Catholicism, being part of the body of Christ, isn't synonymous with being saved. Is that accurate?
Not accurate according to me, no. But that's where we disagree on what it means to be saved. To you it's a one time event. To me it's a prcocess. You of course will call that a works based salvation. I also disagree for nothing I do or can do is without God's graces (didn't I say that's exactly where the conversation will go?)
Rick wrote: As you already know, I believe the body of Christ is all believers who have trusted Christ. So to me, your quote says that the Catholic Church recognizes anyone who has been baptized, whichever way, is saved.
The past participle of the underlined is the contentious point, otherwise it is somewhat accurate.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 21894
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 207 times
Been liked: 1137 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#251

Post by RickD » Thu May 19, 2016 10:00 am

Byblos wrote:
Rick wrote: Maybe in Catholicism, being part of the body of Christ, isn't synonymous with being saved. Is that accurate?
Not accurate according to me, no. But that's where we disagree on what it means to be saved. To you it's a one time event. To me it's a prcocess. You of course will call that a works based salvation. I also disagree for nothing I do or can do is without God's graces (didn't I say that's exactly where the conversation will go?)
Rick wrote: As you already know, I believe the body of Christ is all believers who have trusted Christ. So to me, your quote says that the Catholic Church recognizes anyone who has been baptized, whichever way, is saved.
The past participle of the underlined is the contentious point, otherwise it is somewhat accurate.
Ok. But just for the record, you brought up assurance, not me. :mrgreen:

I was trying to avoid it because when you and I talk about it, I know it ends the conversation.

Edit***
If I say, "the body of Christ is all believers who trust Christ", then would you agree?


So, if you'll humor me, according to the Catholic Church, what must one do to be saved?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


The Flat Earth Society has members all around the globe.



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

EssentialSacrifice
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 854
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:19 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 119 times
Been liked: 66 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#252

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Thu May 19, 2016 10:06 am

philip:
Essential, in what way have I personally attacked Byblos?
philip, you read way too much into this. I mean only that your tone in that post was, imo, harsh.
and harshness doesn't really fit in the mold of love, again imho.

apologies if this feels thin skinned but you misinterpreted my intention. post alone felt harsh, your relationship with Byblos not withstanding.
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1467
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 177 times
Been liked: 73 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#253

Post by crochet1949 » Thu May 19, 2016 10:14 am

Philip -- very well put. But I would like to comment on sprinkle vs immersion -- an important subject -- baptism by immersion is practiced in the New Testament -- it is to show Publically the personal decision that a person has already made in their heart regarding their accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. No saving value in it. Sprinkling is done to infants with no ability to make that decision.

RickD.

"what must one do to be saved'?" Very clear in the Bible. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. And 1 Corinthians 15:1-5 or so --- believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried and rose again on the 3rd day and then was seen amongst various people at various times. According to the Scripture. Obviously I'm paraphrasing -- it's called the gospel in a nutshell.
Nothing in that mentions baptism through Any means. The account of the thieves on the cross being crucified along with Jesus Christ. The one thief acknowledged Jesus Christ - his own need. Jesus Christ , Himself, acknowledged that that very day, they would be in Paradise together. And that thief had No opportunity to be baptized.

User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 21894
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 207 times
Been liked: 1137 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#254

Post by RickD » Thu May 19, 2016 10:20 am

Crochet wrote:
RickD.

"what must one do to be saved'?" Very clear in the Bible. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. And 1 Corinthians 15:1-5 or so --- believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried and rose again on the 3rd day and then was seen amongst various people at various times. According to the Scripture. Obviously I'm paraphrasing -- it's called the gospel in a nutshell.
Nothing in that mentions baptism through Any means. The account of the thieves on the cross being crucified along with Jesus Christ. The one thief acknowledged Jesus Christ - his own need. Jesus Christ , Himself, acknowledged that that very day, they would be in Paradise together. And that thief had No opportunity to be baptized.

Crochet,

You did see that I asked, "according to the Catholic Church...", didn't you?

I'm trying to see what the Catholic Church says on salvation. But thanks for the bible lesson anyways. :lol:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


The Flat Earth Society has members all around the globe.



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1467
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 177 times
Been liked: 73 times

Re: Catholicism Questions

#255

Post by crochet1949 » Thu May 19, 2016 10:31 am

Sometimes Biblical truth , when it obviously contradicts other belief systems, isn't appreciated. But when there is eternal life at stake -- it's important To take a Stand for it -- the Truth.

And, yes, I Did see your comment "according to the Catholic Church".

Post Reply