Humans consists of...

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Humans consists of...

#1

Post by IceMobster » Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:17 am

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... e=57BE67C2


So, according to Aristotle("De anima"), the human's soul consists of two parts:
1)psychical (greek, psyche) part of the soul which consists of our senses, our cognition, our experience, our rationality and mind (greek, nous).
2)spiritual (greek, pneuma) part of the soul which allows us to search and discover meaning and truth in our lives, elaborate that intuitive notion of God's existence and also has the ability of foreboding.

Now, spirit is what gives us freedom, creativity(but not talent????? talent is in spiritual part of the soul??? or so I have been told and now I'm mindf###ed...), transparency, transcendence. The Hebrew word for spirit is ruah. Ruah can also mean wind. So, wind of life. Spirit also gives us the possibility to differentiate good and evil...

Questions:
Is the picture correct? Is my conclusion below it correct? If not, what is not? I think I'm having a hard time differentiating spirit and spiritual part of a soul...
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Re: Humans consists of...

#2

Post by RickD » Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:32 am

IceMobster wrote:https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... e=57BE67C2


So, according to Aristotle("De anima"), the human's soul consists of two parts:
1)psychical (greek, psyche) part of the soul which consists of our senses, our cognition, our experience, our rationality and mind (greek, nous).
2)spiritual (greek, pneuma) part of the soul which allows us to search and discover meaning and truth in our lives, elaborate that intuitive notion of God's existence and also has the ability of foreboding.

Now, spirit is what gives us freedom, creativity(but not talent????? talent is in spiritual part of the soul??? or so I have been told and now I'm mindf###ed...), transparency, transcendence. The Hebrew word for spirit is ruah. Ruah can also mean wind. So, wind of life. Spirit also gives us the possibility to differentiate good and evil...

Questions:
Is the picture correct? Is my conclusion below it correct? If not, what is not? I think I'm having a hard time differentiating spirit and spiritual part of a soul...
I definitely used to lean towards the spirit being different than the soul. Now I'm not so sure. I really don't think it's a huge issue either way. To me, they're basically describing the same thing.
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Re: Humans consists of...

#3

Post by B. W. » Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:46 am

Firsts off, please understand that ancient Hebrew used roughly 22,000 words compared to modern English which has over 300,000 words. So the use of the same words varies according to the context in which they are used. That is why folks see a wide range of meaning in the use of spirit, soul, and body.

The main idea of the words translated spirit, soul, and body convey simply the idea of what makes one a living rational being different from other living organisms on earth. We are individually one being, one essence. In order for our one essence to live, we have a physical body, a soul, and Spirit to ensure the state of life on this planet. From our essence of being flow three distinct co equal attributes.

These consist of the attributes of the body, soul, spirit which are summed up as:

The attributes of the Body: the psychical parts of the body and function of each, appetites and needs of the psychical body, and how these interact and sway the attributes of the soul and spirit as well as carry out the actions of the soul and spirit.

The attributes of the Soul: The mind, heart, will, intellect, reason that is needed to keep the psychical body remain alive and in tune with the spiritual need too.

The attributes of the Spirit ‘is’ the essence of a person, where our will, life, and virtue is. Often thought of as the central control room, or the production room that brings the body and soul together in unity of action, purpose, and will of the spirit.

All three work together as one and each coexist in each other as one in order to maintain life on this planet.

The spirit of man needs the attributes and actions of both the soul and body to maintain psychical life and each attribute works in one accord with each other to maintain life on this earth.

1 John 2:16 mentions this: "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. NASB

The fall of mankind reversed the order so humanity follows the attributes of the body, to control the soul, and spirit. So the needs of the body influence pleasure pain principles which in turn influence the soul and spirit to work on meeting the need of the body and soul as primary focus in life.

In other words, life is out of balanced. People become self-serving, vain, etc and etc and the entire world is all messed up because of it. In other words, virtue is slain, exchanged or changed into those things not virtuous.

Plato mention this theme: A truly virtuous person who did virtuous good would b hated and slain by the world. I can't recall if this was in the Republic or not, but Plato did mention this.

In other words, we have a world which seeks to change good virtues into glorifying bad ones due to the gratifications of the body, soul, which corrupts the human spirit and ruins the entire unity of a person's essence.

At one time, as God designed it, we were to walk with God's Spiritual essence who illuminated our human spirit to influence our soul and body to walk and live according to all good virtue in order to keep and maintain life granted to us by God. Jesus came to restore order back to humanity who fell into disorder.

Now I understand that some folks do not think humanity is in disorder shape. However, look at all the rapes, molestation, crimes, political control issues, personal control issues, vanity, abandonment, rejection, disunity, betrayal, etc and etc in the world and prove to me that all humanity is not dysfunctional or out of order. You can't. No amount of our good deeds can erase our action for control, rejection, abandonment, betrayal, vanity...

Jesus came to reconcile us back to God and change the order by him living within and united to our human spirit to influence or soul and body to shine the virtues of heaven on earth wherever we been assigned in life. In other words, stop the fruits of personal control issues, vanity, abandonment, rejection, disunity, betrayal etc and etc.

Our human flesh/body still wants to control our soul and spirit so we do not do the things we should. But in due time, for the born again Christian, we learn by grace to walk by the loving governance of God's Holy Spirit in our human spirit to shine a little joy, peace, love, hope, kindness, and virtue - note 2 Peter 1:5-8 - on earth.

So do you lack, struggle? Have you betrayed, rejected, abandoned others and they to you? Have you issues with self-seeking, vanity, struggle to maintain control, and being accepted by peers or self or the world's ways?

These may satisfy temporarily but if honesty is to remain a good virtue - why the struggle - questions to figure everything out? Where did that come from and the hunger for something more - originate from?

What is governing your quest in life?
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Re: Humans consists of...

#4

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:43 pm

IceMobster wrote:https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... e=57BE67C2


So, according to Aristotle("De anima"), the human's soul consists of two parts:
1)psychical (greek, psyche) part of the soul which consists of our senses, our cognition, our experience, our rationality and mind (greek, nous).
2)spiritual (greek, pneuma) part of the soul which allows us to search and discover meaning and truth in our lives, elaborate that intuitive notion of God's existence and also has the ability of foreboding.

Now, spirit is what gives us freedom, creativity(but not talent????? talent is in spiritual part of the soul??? or so I have been told and now I'm mindf###ed...), transparency, transcendence. The Hebrew word for spirit is ruah. Ruah can also mean wind. So, wind of life. Spirit also gives us the possibility to differentiate good and evil...

Questions:
Is the picture correct? Is my conclusion below it correct? If not, what is not? I think I'm having a hard time differentiating spirit and spiritual part of a soul...
Actually, Aristotle held (I think rightly) to the simplicity of the soul, which means that it does not have distinct parts (e.g., a part that searches for meaning and a part that is intellectual). I don't think you're going to get very far by attributing some powers to some parts of the soul and other powers to different parts of the soul. Even if that made sense (and I don't think it does, meaning, I think that's just incoherent for reasons I can't get into now), it's really unhelpful because it's too speculative. How would you know which power came from which part? There's no way to test it.

Better to say, with Aristotle, that the soul is just the form of the body, and that the being has whatever capacities or powers it has in virtue of the type of soul it has. So humans are humans because we have a human soul. If you see a human, you see something that is human because of the soul (and in Aristotle language, you would be appealing to what is called the formal cause--the human soul causes the form of me to be what I am, a human). So there are different kinds of souls. The "lowest" is a vegetative or nutritive soul. Plants have these. These souls give the body the capacity to grow, digest food, and reproduce. "Above" that is the sensitive or appetitive soul. Animals have these. These souls have all the capacities of the nutritive soul but also have the added ability to sense and really respond to their surroundings. Pleasure, pain, and associated emotions go with this. The highest type of soul (speaking of material creatures, anyway) is the rational soul. Humans have these. These souls have all the capacities of the two beneath them, but they have the capacity to think, to reason, to be creative/imaginative, etc.

This, by the way, is one of the reasons we ought not take very seriously people who deny the existence of the soul. "The soul" is here understood simply as the animating principle of the body, such that people who say there is no such thing as a soul are literally saying that animating beings are not animated by anything. Just self-contradictory "thinking" . . .

As to your question about ruach, you are right it originally meant "wind." The association with life and breathing should be pretty obvious, such that whatever breathed was considered alive. When you stop breathing, when you give up your last breath (your ruach), your breath/spirit leaves you and you die. There's nothing in the word itself to indicate any special relation to what we call "spirituality." In the context of the Hebrew Bible, it's just the principle of life. So long as you have a ruach, which comes from God, you are alive. When you die, your ruach leaves you.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Humans consists of...

#5

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:22 pm

Oh, body, soul and spirit talk. :)

I'm sympathetic to Jac's views, and think back on it just now, don't feel it is correct.
Jac's right, a lot is speculative, especially of "spirit" distinction, but then we claim to have special revelation too?

Scripture tells us many things about our bodies, spirit, soul.

1 Corinthians 15:42-46 is helpful here:
  • 42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
Paul talks of two natures within us: flesh and spirit. Christian theology is thick on this, especially those who understand grace. When we do something wrong it's our carnal nature, but our spiritual nature which accepts Christ is sinless. Such that Paul declares the things we do that we do desire, it's no longer we that do them but sin in our fleshly bodies. When we a resurrected, we are resurrect in power, raised into a spiritual body.

Jesus also says of the angels in heaven, that we'll be like them at the resurrection. (Mark 12:25; Matt 22:30; Luke 20:36)
Jac doesn't believe angels have spiritual bodies, but rather they're just immaterial spirits/souls, each one unique to itself. Now we might be that way, but I see a distinction between "body" and our essence ("soul"). I believe angels have bodies that while spiritual (with which they can perceive and navigate a heavenly realm), angels possess the ability to also materialise physically (as is often spoken of in Scripture).

Our bodies here and now are physical and carnal, of the flesh.
Our bodies hereafter are ethereal and godly, more fully of the spirit.
Our souls are the breath/life, us at our core.

Bodies enable us to experience the world that they're designed and made for.
Our physical bodies enable us to experience the physical world via taste, smell, touch, sight, sound.
Our spiritual bodies enable us to experience the immaterial spiritual world in a similar manner.

Jesus has an exchange with Nicodemus where He talks of being born again, only spiritually born (John 3:4-8).
  • 4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
When we come to Christ, we're born again of the spirit, our spiritual bodies renewed/rebirthed.
Such that what we were once blind to (spiritual discernment), now we see. Of course it could all just be a lot of Christians trying to rig the deck in their favour, but then there is something about Amazing Grace that rings true with all, penetrates into the blackened spirit of many, and by far the majority of Christians can associate with John Newton's words including where he talks of a new spiritual sight, "Was blind, but now I see."

So then, if we weren't to have a body, would we be conscious? How could with think?
Physically we think with our brains. In the spiritual world, is their an equivilent that our souls can hook into?
I don't know, Ecclesiastes 12:7 says our spirit (here ruach so better understood as the breath of God or Jac's animation -- what I call soul) returns to God who gave it -- note Gen 2:7 says God breathed into us).
So then from that state perhaps we can directly experience God, especially those of us who are spiritually born.

I'm not sure that unless one makes a "spiritual body" distinction, that much Scripture makes sense with Paul talking of spiritual and carnal nature, our being born again, why we can't perceive God or the spiritual world right now if we are spirits are our souls and we are therefore spiritual beings, etc... So there's a second perspective for you. ;)
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Re: Humans consists of...

#6

Post by Jac3510 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:37 am

On the spiritual body and its relation to what we might refer to as "this one":

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas ... sum625.htm
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Humans consists of...

#7

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:57 am

The OT definitely viewed the spirit and souls as different.
Not so much the NT, where they became not so much interchangeable BUT complementary.
Though there is some distinguishing between the two ( as in Paul's "soulish" body VS "spiritual" body) I don't think that the NT writers viewed them as separate in that way.
It was the competing world views they had ( hellenistic and Judaism) that they had to reconcile.
I think at times the writers wrote depending on their audience, what I mean is that if they were writing to Hellenistic greeks ( pagans) they wrote about the spirit and soul in a way THEY would understand, BUT when they wrote to Jews it was more along the OT lines.

In short, while they are NOT the same thing ( if they were there wouldn't be a need for two different terms), they are both part of what it is to be human.

The issue I guess is HOW to interpret certain passages that imply the soul can die with the view that the soul is immortal.
In the OT, it is implied that soul is synonymous with life and with the ceasing of life we have the cessation of the soul/life BUT then there is the view that the soul is merely sleeping, also biblical.

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Re: Humans consists of...

#8

Post by IceMobster » Mon May 02, 2016 2:44 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:( as in Paul's "soulish" body VS "spiritual" body)
Explain, please.
PaulSacramento wrote: BUT then there is the view that the soul is merely sleeping, also biblical.
Where is that mentioned?
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Re: Humans consists of...

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue May 03, 2016 10:09 am

IceMobster wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:( as in Paul's "soulish" body VS "spiritual" body)
Explain, please.
PaulSacramento wrote: BUT then there is the view that the soul is merely sleeping, also biblical.
Where is that mentioned?
"Soulish vs Spiritual ":
“It [the body] is sown a natural [psuchikos, soulish] body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural [psuchikos, soulish] body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul [psuche, soul]; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit [pneuma, spirit]. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural [psuchikos, soulish]; and afterward that which is spiritual.”
• 1 Corinthians 15:44–46


As for the soul being sleeping, well, pretty much any passage that mentions that the dead are asleep may be interpreted as such.
Daniel, 1Corinthians, etc...
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Re: Humans consists of...

#10

Post by ultimate777 » Sat May 14, 2016 4:28 am

IceMobster wrote:https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... e=57BE67C2


So, according to Aristotle("De anima"), the human's soul consists of two parts:
1)psychical (greek, psyche) part of the soul which consists of our senses, our cognition, our experience, our rationality and mind (greek, nous).
2)spiritual (greek, pneuma) part of the soul which allows us to search and discover meaning and truth in our lives, elaborate that intuitive notion of God's existence and also has the ability of foreboding.

Now, spirit is what gives us freedom, creativity(but not talent????? talent is in spiritual part of the soul??? or so I have been told and now I'm mindf###ed...), transparency, transcendence. The Hebrew word for spirit is ruah. Ruah can also mean wind. So, wind of life. Spirit also gives us the possibility to differentiate good and evil...

Questions:
Is the picture correct? Is my conclusion below it correct? If not, what is not? I think I'm having a hard time differentiating spirit and spiritual part of a soul...
If either Bugs Bunny or Data on STTNG were real, would they be human?

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Re: Humans consists of...

#11

Post by ultimate777 » Sat May 14, 2016 4:33 am

Well I guess I should ask this as a seperate topic.

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Re: Humans consists of...

#12

Post by ultimate777 » Sat May 14, 2016 4:40 am

This might be really funny but I'm asking it seriously

If Bugs Bunny and/or Data from "Star Trek The Next Generation" (Google it if need be) were real would they be human?

If so, would they have souls?

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Re: Humans consists of...

#13

Post by IceMobster » Sat May 14, 2016 6:24 am

Come on, man.... Lol.
Data is AI, so, no. At least not at this point in our time.
Bugs Bunny is a talking rabbit and would have an animal soul. Similarly to parrots, such a rabbit can speak.... :mrgreen:
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

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Re: Humans consists of...

#14

Post by RickD » Sat May 14, 2016 7:33 am

ultimate777 wrote:This might be really funny but I'm asking it seriously

If Bugs Bunny and/or Data from "Star Trek The Next Generation" (Google it if need be) were real would they be human?

If so, would they have souls?
Still trying to make 4 sided triangles, I see. y:-?
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Re: Humans consists of...

#15

Post by Kurieuo » Sun May 15, 2016 5:29 pm

You must be two dimensional Rick, because 4 sided triangles are possible in 3D. :P
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