I did not want to multipost, so here it is:
What do you mean by catharsis?
Just being nosy.
I find it hard to understand prayer as well, but the Bible definitely says God wants us to pray. One aspect of it is spiritual warfare - in prayer we're actually doing battle with the forces of darkness. That's about all I can think of, sorry, but I'm sure some others will have lots to say
Catharsis as in sudden realization of the existence of God and interest in Him through prayer, Eucharist, work in the local church and whatnot.
Eh... Pray because Bible says so. And we are battling the forces of darkness through prayer. Lol. Not only missed the topic questions, but the reasons given are, meh... A satanist could say that Satan wants them to do rituals. That way, they are battling the forces of darkness!
Nicki wrote:I disagree that prayer is never to affect God's providence, but it sure is about relationship with him first and foremost. I thought some more about why God wants us to pray - here are some basic principles about God -
- he loves us and wants the best for us;
- he's all-knowing and knows what's best for us;
- he's all-powerful and can bring about anything he wants for us.
Given these principles, we can trust God completely, but he wants us to show that trust by praying and asking him for things. I think there's a limit to how much he'll interfere in the life of someone who hasn't given their life to him, and therefore isn't praying to him - if we haven't entrusted ourselves to him, we're not really his to help.
What do the 3 principles of yours about God have to do with the topic? He can be (and is) all of that regardless of prayer.
Where in the Bible does it say He WANTS us to ask him for things?
The last paragraph implies we do not entrust ourselves to Him if we don't pray. I disagree. But, then again, do you consider prayer what Mallz explained or do you consider prayer as in reciting prayers? If the former, I do not disagree.
Exactly. I would argue further that the first two make no sense either. You can thank him and praise him in your thoughts, talk to him like you would talk to a friend of yours (as Mallz later wrote)...
Off topic question: what purpose does the white dot serve at the end of your posts, Audacity? So you can organize better when replying to someone who already quoted your post?
IceMobster: How do you know that the prayer worked? Why would God help you?
Because He answers my prayers. He helps because He desires to, and it's within His will. And if it is within His will, it will happen.
Weird circumstances on the situation you were talking about..
But that makes prayer redundant. If His will is for that person to die of cancer, the person will die of it no matter what you wish for through prayer.
IceMobster: Same thing with Rick's nephew. Why do you think you having him in your prayer or thoughts will help him? God will help him? Why? There are countless others who are in the same position and are not receiving prayers. So, God won't help them? Is God helping them? Why should He? Only because certain people have other certain people in their thoughts, Providence assists them? What...?
Audacity: ...but prayers of petition seem a bit odd. They presume that god is unaware of the need being petitioned, or that god won't act to address the need unless asked to. In light of god's omniscience the first doesn't make any sense. And if god won't move a finger unless asked makes him a first class jerk.
I agree with you, Audacity.
Prayer to God is never to effect His providence. He does what He will do, regardless. I don't even like the term 'prayer' as it has been so muddied and convoluted. He wants a relationship with His creatures. A real relationship.. Ya know, the type where you say 'what's up YHWH' (or one of His persons, specifically), like you would an endearing friend. How can you have a relationship with someone if you don't talk to a person, and that person back (do you need a voice to talk?)?
Prayer is for many things, but overall it's to develop your relationship with YHWH. How do you get on good terms with someone you like? You know their will. How do you know what their will is? Ask, explore them, like you would anyone...
What of the humans that don't have themselves in anyone's thoughts or prayers?
Kind of a moot question now.. People need to start with themselves..
Start treating Him like He is real, like He is. He will start responding to you. Doubt I answered to your desires, ask for any clarification.
Oh, He is real. There is no doubt in that. My desires? I desire to know how EXACTLY did He answer your prayers? Also, what prayers? Praying like what you mentioned here (as in talking with an endearing friend) or praying as in reciting Our Father, who art in Heaven?
Lastly, what do you consider for a God's response?
Byblos wrote:Prayers work 100% of the time when they align with God's will and none of the time when they don't. It's that simple. When I pray my intention is for God to affect the change in me (or others, but never in HIM), to bring about an outcome that is closer to His will.
No offense. All I heard was a bunch of bulls#it. (I'm being serious and honest, bro. Sorry if that offended you or anyone else.)
I don't find it simple at all.
Anyway, here come the questions... When you pray with the intention for God to affect you or your environment, you are changing His will, are you not? If you are not, how do you know that your prayer and changing of yourself and/or your environment is the part of His will? Lastly, what makes you think such an outcome(basically, any outcome) would be closer to His will than some other outcome?
Mallz wrote:We do not effect what our Father will or will not do. To do so, would be to change Him; Him reacting to us, which would make Him not God. We have many, many choices in each decision (action or movement). And they are existent by Him. He gives us the choices. If I choose a choice that is in His will, I am moving into His will. And picking a choice that is better for me, and everyone, than if it were a choice not in his will. He is ready to give if it's done through the relationship. Outside of the relationship, there is no communication besides dwelling in existence. We are to interact with Existence and Its expressions. And are made to by expressing Himself to existence. We are the wife.
Affect*, not effect. Effect is an end result. Affect is beforehand. Think of cause --> effect.
Lost you on the non-coloured parts. Which choice is in His will? All of them? If so, how can you say you ever moved out of His will? If not so, it would mean He isn't perfect and that isn't possible, right?
Furthermore, "And picking a choice that is better for me, and everyone, than if it were a choice not in his will." I don't understand this at all. Picking a choice that is better for me and people around me than if it were a choice not in his will
"He is ready to give if it's done through the relationship." Implies He usually doesn't give? Give what exactly? Love, compassion, what? Atheists got it too, and they don't pray. What, then?
Haha, "We are the wife." -- nice one.