How do you know prayer works?

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IceMobster
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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#46

Post by IceMobster » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:12 am

swordfish7 wrote:If you don't believe the good book, then how can you be a believer? How do you decide what is God's word? Essentially, you become God which is idolatry, which is damnable. You are walking on thin ice between heaven and hell if you are a believer. You must believe in Jesus to be saved (John 3:16, Eph. 2:8,9).
Check what answer is under "Christian:" ------------------------------------------------------------>
swordfish7 wrote:That would include confessing your sins and turning and living for God.
Catholic spotted!
Confession of your sins to a man and not to God makes no sense. There is no need for a mediator between a man and God.
swordfish7 wrote:You never answered my question! God stands outside of time and if you understand your physics, you will know why.Everything, from God's perspective, is seen at once over all time. He sees our prayers as well as all sides related to the prayer. In God's infinite knowledge he answers our prayers in the best way, even though we may no understand His reasons.
Ok? What does this have to do with anything? Stating the obvious, uh? :mrgreen:
swordfish7 wrote:
IceMobster wrote: Nah, the book tells you God commands you. The book tells you it works. (As you can see, I've got a problem with the Scripture, as well)
Furthermore, my objection and question is to things like praying for others. Or when someone asks to pray for oneself. You can't know if it works.
It is different when you pray to thank or worship God, of course..
Over the years I have prayed many prayers, and I have seen God's faithfulness in answering the prayers. One example was my father who was hard-set against Christianity. My family prayed for years for him and at long last he accepted Christ to be his Lord and Savior. I was walking on a trail with him with my uncle who was agnostic. He viewed that as the more enlightened atheistic view. My dad began challenging my uncle about the Christian world view. I got hot under the collar, since my dad didn't profess to believe, but I held my tongue. My uncle who always appreciated my dads unbelief, became visibly agitated as my father went on. I just couldn't believe it, even though I had prayed for him since I was a child - my mother and brothers too, not to mention many a fine pastors too. This is just one of thousands of prayers that I have seen answered, so I do believe in the power of prayer. But I take issue with the notion that prayers, that are not answered in the way that we want, are not answered prayer. y:-? Sometimes we don't pray in God's will but selfishly. Is God required to give us what we want when it may be very damaging to the soul? Certainly not! Sometimes we pray to get out of the consequences from our sinful actions, like David did when he sinned with Bathsheba. Is God required to answer these prayers? No! And sometimes God has some bigger and better plan that we cannot see which will be revealed in heaven!
Because you need to say out loud and proclaim to others that you believe in Christ? Lol, since when? It is a matter of relationship between you and God and since God can obviously hear your thoughts and knows any possibility you could make out of those thoughts, why is it required that he accepts Christ by tongue if he has accepted Him in heart (which is the only thing that matters anyway)?

Indeed, selfish prayers are bad and we do not deserve any of His mercy. God is not required to do this or that.

Reminds me of the picture: :mrgreen:
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Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#47

Post by Byblos » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:38 am

IceMobster wrote:
swordfish7 wrote:That would include confessing your sins and turning and living for God.
Catholic spotted!
Confession of your sins to a man and not to God makes no sense. There is no need for a mediator between a man and God.
This is just great, we don't have enough Protestants to contend with, now even skeptics are shunning us. We must be doing something right! :pound:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#48

Post by IceMobster » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:07 am

Byblos wrote:
IceMobster wrote:
swordfish7 wrote:That would include confessing your sins and turning and living for God.
Catholic spotted!
Confession of your sins to a man and not to God makes no sense. There is no need for a mediator between a man and God.
This is just great, we don't have enough Protestants to contend with, now even skeptics are shunning us. We must be doing something right! :pound:
Well, I was a Catholic. So, yeah, explain to your ex-Catholic brother how does that make any sense. Great, apostolic succession and tradition, makes sense but what does confession have to do with it?
You didn't see Christ giving confession left and right, no? He did start a Church, but Church proclaimed certain things that fit her as God given whilst they are necessarily not. That's how I see it. Correct me if I am wrong.

Futhermore, other sacraments such as confirmation and reconciliation were made simply so bishops and priests had something to do other than celebrating mass.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#49

Post by Nicki » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:14 am

IceMobster wrote:
Byblos wrote:
IceMobster wrote:
swordfish7 wrote:That would include confessing your sins and turning and living for God.
Catholic spotted!
Confession of your sins to a man and not to God makes no sense. There is no need for a mediator between a man and God.
This is just great, we don't have enough Protestants to contend with, now even skeptics are shunning us. We must be doing something right! :pound:
Well, I was a Catholic. So, yeah, explain to your ex-Catholic brother how does that make any sense. Great, apostolic succession and tradition, makes sense but what does confession have to do with it?
You didn't see Christ giving confession left and right, no? He did start a Church, but Church proclaimed certain things that fit her as God given whilst they are necessarily not. That's how I see it. Correct me if I am wrong.

Futhermore, other sacraments such as confirmation and reconciliation were made simply so bishops and priests had something to do other than celebrating mass.
Swordfish didn't really mention confessing sins to others - maybe he/she just meant confessing them to God. That's a funny way of looking at the sacraments :mrgreen: - I think they're supposed to have more significance than that though.

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#50

Post by Byblos » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:31 am

IceMobster wrote:
Byblos wrote:
IceMobster wrote:
swordfish7 wrote:That would include confessing your sins and turning and living for God.
Catholic spotted!
Confession of your sins to a man and not to God makes no sense. There is no need for a mediator between a man and God.
This is just great, we don't have enough Protestants to contend with, now even skeptics are shunning us. We must be doing something right! :pound:
Well, I was a Catholic. So, yeah, explain to your ex-Catholic brother how does that make any sense. Great, apostolic succession and tradition, makes sense but what does confession have to do with it?
You didn't see Christ giving confession left and right, no? He did start a Church, but Church proclaimed certain things that fit her as God given whilst they are necessarily not. That's how I see it. Correct me if I am wrong.

Futhermore, other sacraments such as confirmation and reconciliation were made simply so bishops and priests had something to do other than celebrating mass.
y#-o Oy! The trifecta: a non-protestant ex-catholic skeptic. We're doomed. :twisted:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#51

Post by RickD » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:48 am

Byblos wrote:
IceMobster wrote:
Byblos wrote:
IceMobster wrote:
swordfish7 wrote:That would include confessing your sins and turning and living for God.
Catholic spotted!
Confession of your sins to a man and not to God makes no sense. There is no need for a mediator between a man and God.
This is just great, we don't have enough Protestants to contend with, now even skeptics are shunning us. We must be doing something right! :pound:
Well, I was a Catholic. So, yeah, explain to your ex-Catholic brother how does that make any sense. Great, apostolic succession and tradition, makes sense but what does confession have to do with it?
You didn't see Christ giving confession left and right, no? He did start a Church, but Church proclaimed certain things that fit her as God given whilst they are necessarily not. That's how I see it. Correct me if I am wrong.

Futhermore, other sacraments such as confirmation and reconciliation were made simply so bishops and priests had something to do other than celebrating mass.
y#-o Oy! The trifecta: a non-protestant ex-catholic skeptic. We're doomed. :twisted:
There's no such animal as an ex Catholic. Only Catholics who lost their way, only to return later.

:samen:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

IceMobster
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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#52

Post by IceMobster » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:02 am

Byblos wrote: y#-o Oy! The trifecta: a non-protestant ex-catholic skeptic. We're doomed. :twisted:
So instead of correcting this you are going to talk garbage. Well damn, that does surprise me not.
Nicki wrote:
IceMobster wrote:
Byblos wrote:
IceMobster wrote:
swordfish7 wrote:That would include confessing your sins and turning and living for God.
Catholic spotted!
Confession of your sins to a man and not to God makes no sense. There is no need for a mediator between a man and God.
This is just great, we don't have enough Protestants to contend with, now even skeptics are shunning us. We must be doing something right! :pound:
Well, I was a Catholic. So, yeah, explain to your ex-Catholic brother how does that make any sense. Great, apostolic succession and tradition, makes sense but what does confession have to do with it?
You didn't see Christ giving confession left and right, no? He did start a Church, but Church proclaimed certain things that fit her as God given whilst they are necessarily not. That's how I see it. Correct me if I am wrong.

Futhermore, other sacraments such as confirmation and reconciliation were made simply so bishops and priests had something to do other than celebrating mass.
Swordfish didn't really mention confessing sins to others - maybe he/she just meant confessing them to God. That's a funny way of looking at the sacraments :mrgreen: - I think they're supposed to have more significance than that though.
Perhaps.
You know what else is funny? Hearing the last paragraph that I wrote from a Catholic theologian (and a priest) who is the head of the Church's history cathedra on a Catholic theologian university in my city. And no, it was not a joke.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#53

Post by swordfish7 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:11 am

Niki, you got it right! Yes I am a protestant.

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#54

Post by melanie » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:44 am

Hmm that's tricky because many people have prayed fervently and deserved a good outcome but it never happened.
Visit the pediatric cancer ward, the most innocent going through the most hideous disease. I bet there isn't a parent religious or not who isn't praying for the best outcome.
Sometimes there's a miracle, too often there's not.
Good people suffer, sometimes the most.
I don't think we pray for the perfect outcome but the strength to deal with what comes our way.

We place one foot infront of the other and keep living. God isn't in the habit of giving us easy street. He protects His flock but like us we don't cushion our children from every fall, we allow them to make decisions and live. We are always there when things go wrong because they will and when they do we show them our unconditional love and then send them on their way to hurt, live, make mistakes and have life screw them over again.
They hurt, they cry, they grow and they move forward.
A continuous flow of birth and death, sorrow and joy.
We don't always know the meaning behind every outcome but there is purpose behind it all.
I guess that's faith.

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#55

Post by IceMobster » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:52 am

melanie wrote:Hmm that's tricky because many people have prayed fervently and deserved a good outcome but it never happened.
Visit the pediatric cancer ward, the most innocent going through the most hideous disease. I bet there isn't a parent religious or not who isn't praying for the best outcome.
Sometimes there's a miracle, too often there's not.
Good people suffer, sometimes the most.
I don't think we pray for the perfect outcome but the strength to deal with what comes our way.

We place one foot infront of the other and keep living. God isn't in the habit of giving us easy street. He protects His flock but like us we don't cushion our children from every fall, we allow them to make decisions and live. We are always there when things go wrong because they will and when they do we show them our unconditional love and then send them on their way to hurt, live, make mistakes and have life screw them over again.
They hurt, they cry, they grow and they move forward.
A continuous flow of birth and death, sorrow and joy.
We don't always know the meaning behind every outcome but there is purpose behind it all.
I guess that's faith.
A good conclusion. Still doesn't explain what is the purpose of praying for others or knowing how the prayer works. :mrgreen:
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#56

Post by crochet1949 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:08 pm

Praying is our communicating with God through Jesus Christ. Most likely -- our praying / talking to God / will change Us , the person Praying.

There will be a 'yes', 'no', 'wait' on God's timing. AND realizing that healing may come in heaven, but not here on earth.

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#57

Post by Nicki » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:21 am

I've brought this back up because I was thinking about Luke 18:1-8, the parable of the persistent widow. Jesus told it to show his disciples 'that they should always pray and not give up.' The widow in the story keeps asking the judge for justice until he essentially gets sick of it and does what she asks. If the purpose of prayer is to change us because God can't be persuaded to change anything, how does this parable apply? y:-/

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#58

Post by Nicki » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:19 am

:sbump:

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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#59

Post by LittleHamster » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:28 pm

Nicki wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:19 am
:sbump:

I've been thinking of this one in terms of my own children. If they ask me for stuff. Will I grant every request from them? Probably not. But I am more likely to do for them the things that are in their best interest and that which is according to my will. If they nag me persistently, there is a greater chance I'll do it but only if I think it's ok with what I believe to be right (just) for them (or Justice as in Luke 18:1-8).

Now, if my kids don't ask for anything, I still give them stuff, but it's usually the bare minimum. If they do good works, I might even give them a bonus or two (without the asking), thus 'reaping what they sow' kind of stuff.

Now, if my kids ask for the wrong thing, I may still let 'em have it ! Why? In order to teach them a good lesson :-)

Applying what I just described above to prayer sounds a bit simplistic, but we are made in his image.
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Re: How do you know prayer works?

#60

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:41 pm

Nicki wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:21 am
I've brought this back up because I was thinking about Luke 18:1-8, the parable of the persistent widow. Jesus told it to show his disciples 'that they should always pray and not give up.' The widow in the story keeps asking the judge for justice until he essentially gets sick of it and does what she asks. If the purpose of prayer is to change us because God can't be persuaded to change anything, how does this parable apply? y:-/
The question is whether Luke 18:1-8 is applicable in some way to us, as it seems clear to me Jesus was speaking directly to His disciples and helping them to prepare for what would come.

Nonetheless, it stands to reason that the parable can still also apply to us. Maybe that is why Jesus often used parables, as they have like a "moral to the story", with general rules or sentiments that can be applied more universally.

So then, if we keep hassling God, will God eventually answer our prayers? Then, while it seems in some way wrong, for we often think God wilI do what God will, I guess Jesus is here saying something contrary to such. That is, He is placing God more on a personal level with us, as being somewhat interested in human interaction, and as such within our personal reach. Perhaps?

Perhaps the freedom we have in our world, our ability to choose and decide things for ourselves, is an insight into some truth that God doesn't want to just will things of His own accord, but rather enter into an exchange with us.

Now throw in also the delicate balance that God must achieve in order to have this world be a test of our human hearts (without His constant meddling and overriding), and it really is such a delicate balance between God's desire for us vs. allowing freedom to flourish (which includes our freedom to turn away from God). Yet, we should not give up, simply because God isn't answering, or perhaps is delaying (whether or not we can understand the reasons why), but rather we should press into God all the more.

HOWEVER, re-reading this passage again, it shouldn't be lost that the parallel drawn by Jesus is that "God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night..." The disciples and early Christians suffered much after Christ was crucified. So then, the prayers to God are a distinct kind of prayer. Since many early Christians were persecuted and killed, including nearly all the disciples, Jesus was in essence promising they wouldn't be forsaken. It must have seemed to many at the time, and even to many Christians today, that God isn't answering, and yet God will measure out justice speedily in the end when all is said and done.
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