Does God have faith in you?

Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
Mallz
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 809
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:34 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Does God have faith in you?

Post by Mallz »

What do you mean we can de-nature ourselves and create abominations of Existence?
Sin. Sin denatures/degrades/morphs and essence into something beyond itself. Take the oxymoron 'gay marriage' for example. Or an easier example, a violent husband. His self was denatured to be violent and destroys himself and those he interacts with because of it. The abomination is the 'violent husband' where he should be a 'loving husband' the natural intent.
Surely you don't think we are little gods?
Psalm 82 We aren't using the term 'little gods' the same. I am saying that, but I doubt how you think of it.
User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3590
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided

Re: Does God have faith in you?

Post by Nessa »

Mallz wrote:
What do you mean we can de-nature ourselves and create abominations of Existence?
Sin. Sin denatures/degrades/morphs and essence into something beyond itself. Take the oxymoron 'gay marriage' for example. Or an easier example, a violent husband. His self was denatured to be violent and destroys himself and those he interacts with because of it. The abomination is the 'violent husband' where he should be a 'loving husband' the natural intent.
Surely you don't think we are little gods?
Psalm 82 We aren't using the term 'little gods' the same. I am saying that, but I doubt how you think of it.
Re: psalm 82
http://www.gotquestions.org/little-gods.html
User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3590
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided

Re: Does God have faith in you?

Post by Nessa »

Tho maybe you're right we have different meanings...
Is that how you read ps 82? Re: article
Mallz
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 809
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:34 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Does God have faith in you?

Post by Mallz »

Nessa: Tho maybe your right we have differnt meanings...
Is that how you read ps 82? Re: article
Yes.
User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3590
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided

Re: Does God have faith in you?

Post by Nessa »

Mallz wrote:
Nessa: Tho maybe your right we have differnt meanings...
Is that how you read ps 82? Re: article
Yes.
Yes we have different meanings or yes thats how you read.ps 82?
Mallz
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 809
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:34 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Does God have faith in you?

Post by Mallz »

Yes, that is how I read psalm 82 :mrgreen:
User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado

Re: Does God have faith in you?

Post by B. W. »

Boy oh boy, looks like we are straying off topic.

I suggest that folks take a look at what the Hebraic / Eastern Orthodoxy teaches for a moment. The early Church from the time of the Apostles till the filioque schism between east and west held to the doctrines of the Hebraic/Eastern Orthodox. Which taught
theosis - union with God. In modern terms, we of the west call this, a personal relationship becoming one with Christ.

St Augustine influenced western theological thought as did Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin. The Hebraic Christian thought of the East was forgotten and ignored due to the split between East and west and the Muslim conquest of the East. Much of the terms from the east were forgotten by the west so they sound strange and one that sounds strange is doctrine of Divination / theosis.

To find out more on this please read the full link partially quoted below to avoid gathering the pitchforks and building a pyre to burn someone at the stake:
Orthodox theology

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis

Theosis ("deification," "divinization") is the process of a worshiper becoming free of hamartía ("missing the mark"), being united with God, beginning in this life and later consummated in bodily resurrection. For Orthodox Christians, Théōsis (see 2 Pet. 1:4) is salvation. Théōsis assumes that humans from the beginning are made to share in the Life or Nature of the all-Holy Trinity. Therefore, an infant or an adult worshiper is saved from the state of unholiness (hamartía — which is not to be confused with hamártēma “sin”) for participation in the Life (zōé, not simply bíos) of the Trinity — which is everlasting.

This is not to be confused with the heretical (apothéōsis) - "Deification in God’s Essence", which is imparticipable.

The statement by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, "The Son of God became man, that we might become god", [the second g is always lowercase since man can never become a God] indicates the concept beautifully. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become " . . . partakers of divine nature." Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is "becoming by grace what God is by nature" (De Incarnatione, I). What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis - it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god.

Through theoria, the knowledge of God in Jesus Christ, human beings come to know and experience what it means to be fully human (the created image of God); through their communion with Jesus Christ God shares Himself with the human race, in order to conform them to all that God is in knowledge, righteousness and holiness. Theosis also asserts the complete restoration of all people (and of the entire creation), in principle. This is built upon the understanding of the atonement put forward by Irenaeus of Lyons, called "recapitulation."

For many fathers, theosis goes beyond simply restoring people to their state before the Fall of Adam and Eve, teaching that because Christ united the human and divine natures in his person, it is now possible for someone to experience closer fellowship with God than Adam and Eve initially experienced in the Garden of Eden, and that people can become more like God than Adam and Eve were at that time. Some Orthodox theologians go so far as to say that Jesus would have become incarnate for this reason alone, even if Adam and Eve had never sinned.

All of humanity is fully restored to the full potential of humanity because the Son of God took to Himself a human nature to be born of a woman, and takes to Himself also the sufferings due to sin (yet is not Himself a sinful man, and is God unchanged in His being). In Christ, the two natures of God and human are not two persons but one; thus, a union is effected in Christ, between all of humanity and God. So, the holy God and sinful humanity are reconciled in principle, in the one sinless man, Jesus Christ. (See Jesus's prayer as recorded in John 17.)

This reconciliation is made actual through the struggle (podvig in Russian) to conform to the image of Christ. Without the struggle, the praxis, there is no real faith; faith leads to action, without which it is dead. One must unite will, thought and action to God's will, His thoughts and His actions. A person must fashion his life to be a mirror, a true likeness of God. More than that, since God and humanity are more than a similarity in Christ but rather a true union, Christians' lives are more than mere imitation and are rather a union with the life of God Himself: so that, the one who is working out salvation, is united with God working within the penitent both to will and to do that which pleases God. Gregory Palamas affirmed the possibility of humanity's union with God in His energies, while also affirming that because of God's transcendence and utter otherness, it is impossible for any person or other creature to know or to be united with God's essence. Yet through faith we can attain phronema, an understanding of the faith of the Church.

The journey towards theosis includes many forms of praxis. Living in the community of the church and partaking regularly of the sacraments, and especially the Eucharist, is taken for granted. Also important is cultivating "prayer of the heart", and prayer that never ceases, as Paul exhorts the Thessalonians (1 and 2). This unceasing prayer of the heart is a dominant theme in the writings of the Fathers, especially in those collected in the Philokalia.
Yes, folks do read Palms 82 differently. Mormons do and are in error. Eastern Christian traditional doctrine and those of the early church fathers did as well too. We too of the western Christianity read it differently too and are the first to shout heresy about everything. Jesus quoted part of Psalms 82 in John 10 and stumped the religious. We in the West call it a personal relationship with Christ and learning to become more like him and the Eastern Christian mind calls it theosis. The western mind seeks to burn at the stake the Eastern Christian brothers and sisters in Christ without understanding. Sad...
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
User avatar
Nessa
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3590
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Creation Position: Undecided

Re: Does God have faith in you?

Post by Nessa »

B. W. wrote:
To find out more on this please read the full link partially quoted below to avoid gathering the pitchforks and building a pyre to burn someone at the stake:

-

And who is doing that here?
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: Does God have faith in you?

Post by RickD »

B. W.,

You usually link CARM with things like this. Did you know they don't really give a favorable opinion of Theosis, and the Eastern Orthodox Church?
https://carm.org/what-is-theosis
In addition, CARM does not support the Eastern Orthodox Church and considers it to contain serious errors. We strongly recommend that the Eastern Orthodox Church, like the Roman Catholic Church, be avoided. Nevertheless, we have provided several quotes from Eastern Orthodox sources, so you might better understand what it teaches about theosis.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado

Re: Does God have faith in you?

Post by B. W. »

RickD wrote:B. W.,

You usually link CARM with things like this. Did you know they don't really give a favorable opinion of Theosis, and the Eastern Orthodox Church?
https://carm.org/what-is-theosis
In addition, CARM does not support the Eastern Orthodox Church and considers it to contain serious errors. We strongly recommend that the Eastern Orthodox Church, like the Roman Catholic Church, be avoided. Nevertheless, we have provided several quotes from Eastern Orthodox sources, so you might better understand what it teaches about theosis.
Yes, that is simply because just like Protestant Churches there are a lot of these that are a bit off as well too. Likewise the same goes for EO too. Do you think all Protestant Churches have it right?

Again it is the weird groups that get all the press. Theosis is interpreted different ways in the EO community as much as predestination and the creation days are in Protestant Churches. The EO in my opinion is using outdated terms to explain thing as this without noting that words, over time, can change meanings. Charity for example is one of those words that has changed meaning from 1611 AD KJV and now means something else in the modern world.

In EO some groups strictly believe that theosis is expressed and comes about and manifests best in the community church where people learn to love and respect each other, pretty radical isn't it? Very heretical too to dare think that folks should actually be close and love one another within their church communities and that by such acts of love/respect is theosis in action and achievable. How dare they! As they may make they rest us us look bad! Now I said all this in tongue and check to make a point that that true idea of Theosis was once taught as the same as Jesus command to love one another. Over time, this concept was expanded on and drifted and evolved into the stranger segments taught on the subject that CARM mentions.

The EO is not a one solid block cookie cutter denomination where all its communities believe the same way. They are diverse as the Protestant Churches and some just as weird. Whereas the RC are bascally tied to one structure, the EO is not, just as the Protestant Churches are not the same. It is amazing that the Lord can get anything done at all with any of us...

So If people want to assign the heretic label to all and every EO membersthen such should use the same standard for all Protestant Churches too.

It all goes back to one thing, what the bible teaches on theosis concept, not carm or anyone - what does the word say on it...

Does Romans 8:29 teach what it says or not? Does 2 Peter 1:2-10 exist?

What is all this talk about a personal one on one relationship with Jesus you hear so much about - is it scriptural?

Did Jesus promise that the Holy Spirit would be where in a born again soul? If so, is that union or not and if union ...

...Would such a relationship alter ones lifestyle and if so, how?

Would such a lifestyle teach one right from wrong - if so how?

Guess, those are the questions that need asked.
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
Post Reply