Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#196

Post by Philip » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:22 pm

Not to mention that, in ancient Israel, a slave was an indebted contract servant for a specific period and with certain rights that were held by both parties. One of those rights was that a slave was not to be abused - an extremely stupid action by a master who stood to profit by his "slave's" labors. This is one of those many things that people read modern understandings into things they read in the Bible.

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#197

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:27 am

It is always important to understand that when we read the bible we are reading a collection of works that were written TO ancient people and not TO Us ( though written FOR us) and that means that a ot of stuff that didn't need explaining for THEM, we may need clarification base don OUR preconceived notions of things, such as slavery.

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#198

Post by outlaw » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:13 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:It is always important to understand that when we read the bible we are reading a collection of works that were written TO ancient people and not TO Us ( though written FOR us) and that means that a ot of stuff that didn't need explaining for THEM, we may need clarification base don OUR preconceived notions of things, such as slavery.
So gods instructions were FOR us then? doesn't really change it does it? a never changing god think about what that means.

Why when you read the nice things you never say "its always important to understand it wasn't written TO us?

Is there a time or place or context where you would permit a person to own another person as property?

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#199

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:31 am

outlaw wrote:Is there a time or place or context where you would permit a person to own another person as property?
You don't really understand what biblical slavery is. How many slaves work for you? Find out here:

http://www.slaveryfootprint.org

...do the test and tell us how many slaves work for you.

Now, the test at slaveryfootprint.org is as close as we can get to understanding the biblical concept of slavery.

Well, how many slaves do you have? (I have 38.) Are you more or less ''morally pure'' than I?

FL :D
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#200

Post by outlaw » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:22 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
outlaw wrote:Is there a time or place or context where you would permit a person to own another person as property?
You don't really understand what biblical slavery is. How many slaves work for you? Find out here:

http://www.slaveryfootprint.org

...do the test and tell us how many slaves work for you.

Now, the test at slaveryfootprint.org is as close as we can get to understanding the biblical concept of slavery.

Well, how many slaves do you have? (I have 38.) Are you more or less ''morally pure'' than I?

FL :D
Do you want me to quote more bible passages that give clear instructions about how much your allowed to beat your slaves?

I understand we're all slaves to this big machine that we call life, our economy etc i get it, but if your trying to make a case that this is any way similar to the way the bible talks about slavery then your absolutely kidding yourself. You can't seriously compare the two and keep a straight face. Drawing a long bow would be an understatement

By the way i have no slaves, i personally own no one as property or against their will and treat no one as property. If i inadvertently buy something that is made from a material that is produced in a slave labour type fashion how can you say that person works for me? The criminal is their boss that is profiting off them not me.

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#201

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:01 pm

outlaw wrote:Do you want me to quote more bible passages that give clear instructions about how much your allowed to beat your slaves?
No, I want you to understand what a slave is in biblical terms. Do you wish to continue in your ignorance?
outlaw wrote:I understand we're all slaves to this big machine that we call life, our economy etc i get it, but if your trying to make a case that this is any way similar to the way the bible talks about slavery then your absolutely kidding yourself. You can't seriously compare the two and keep a straight face. Drawing a long bow would be an understatement
Cut the crap, outlaw. I'm not interested in your poetic views about the economy. I asked you a simple question and you have yet to answer it:

So, how many slaves work for you? I want to know; do the test and put the number here so we can see it.

www.slaveryfootprint.org

Answer the question, then we'll continue.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#202

Post by FlawedIntellect » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:12 pm

outlaw wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
outlaw wrote:Is there a time or place or context where you would permit a person to own another person as property?
You don't really understand what biblical slavery is. How many slaves work for you? Find out here:

http://www.slaveryfootprint.org

...do the test and tell us how many slaves work for you.

Now, the test at slaveryfootprint.org is as close as we can get to understanding the biblical concept of slavery.

Well, how many slaves do you have? (I have 38.) Are you more or less ''morally pure'' than I?

FL :D
Do you want me to quote more bible passages that give clear instructions about how much your allowed to beat your slaves?

I understand we're all slaves to this big machine that we call life, our economy etc i get it, but if your trying to make a case that this is any way similar to the way the bible talks about slavery then your absolutely kidding yourself. You can't seriously compare the two and keep a straight face. Drawing a long bow would be an understatement

By the way i have no slaves, i personally own no one as property or against their will and treat no one as property. If i inadvertently buy something that is made from a material that is produced in a slave labour type fashion how can you say that person works for me? The criminal is their boss that is profiting off them not me.
Do you want to be shown biblical passages regarding how and why people end up slaves, as well as rules concerning the release of slaves, and furthermore the matter that released slaves are to be given wealth by their masters? What about passages concerning the Year of Jubilee?

Have you even bothered to read through the OT laws, or did you just skim for anything you could use as ammo and twist out of the context that you are so blatantly oblivious to?

Are you really that dumb?

You've got 3 ex-athiests calling you out on your BS, ones who know the text better than you do.

Heck, they know the text better than I do, which is a bit ironic considering my Christian upbringing.

Needless to say, you're absolutely clueless as to who you're talking to. So are ya going to listen and think, or do you want to just rage against the heavens some more, and make a fool of yourself on this forum? Do you want to learn, or do you just want to make a fool of yourself and attack positions that you don't even understand? (You can't make good arguments if you don't understand what you're arguing against. This entire topic is you raging about things you have no clue about, essentially making a fool of yourself and attacking anyone who calls you out on it.)

By the way... If you're here to rant about your hatred of God and Christianity, then you're at the wrong forum. There's probably plenty of other forums out there devoted to that. You want to do that? Go ranting over there instead.

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#203

Post by outlaw » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:20 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
outlaw wrote:Do you want me to quote more bible passages that give clear instructions about how much your allowed to beat your slaves?
No, I want you to understand what a slave is in biblical terms. Do you wish to continue in your ignorance?
outlaw wrote:I understand we're all slaves to this big machine that we call life, our economy etc i get it, but if your trying to make a case that this is any way similar to the way the bible talks about slavery then your absolutely kidding yourself. You can't seriously compare the two and keep a straight face. Drawing a long bow would be an understatement
Cut the crap, outlaw. I'm not interested in your poetic views about the economy. I asked you a simple question and you have yet to answer it:

So, how many slaves work for you? I want to know; do the test and put the number here so we can see it.

http://www.slaveryfootprint.org

Answer the question, then we'll continue.

FL
I answered you


By the way i have no slaves, i personally own no one as property or against their will and treat no one as property. If i inadvertently buy something that is made from a material that is produced in a slave labour type fashion how can you say that person works for me? The criminal is their boss that is profiting off them not me.

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#204

Post by outlaw » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:40 pm

FlawedIntellect wrote:
outlaw wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
outlaw wrote:Is there a time or place or context where you would permit a person to own another person as property?
You don't really understand what biblical slavery is. How many slaves work for you? Find out here:

http://www.slaveryfootprint.org

...do the test and tell us how many slaves work for you.

Now, the test at slaveryfootprint.org is as close as we can get to understanding the biblical concept of slavery.

Well, how many slaves do you have? (I have 38.) Are you more or less ''morally pure'' than I?

FL :D
Do you want me to quote more bible passages that give clear instructions about how much your allowed to beat your slaves?

I understand we're all slaves to this big machine that we call life, our economy etc i get it, but if your trying to make a case that this is any way similar to the way the bible talks about slavery then your absolutely kidding yourself. You can't seriously compare the two and keep a straight face. Drawing a long bow would be an understatement

By the way i have no slaves, i personally own no one as property or against their will and treat no one as property. If i inadvertently buy something that is made from a material that is produced in a slave labour type fashion how can you say that person works for me? The criminal is their boss that is profiting off them not me.
Do you want to be shown biblical passages regarding how and why people end up slaves, as well as rules concerning the release of slaves, and furthermore the matter that released slaves are to be given wealth by their masters? What about passages concerning the Year of Jubilee?

Have you even bothered to read through the OT laws, or did you just skim for anything you could use as ammo and twist out of the context that you are so blatantly oblivious to?

Are you really that dumb?

You've got 3 ex-athiests calling you out on your BS, ones who know the text better than you do.

Heck, they know the text better than I do, which is a bit ironic considering my Christian upbringing.

Needless to say, you're absolutely clueless as to who you're talking to. So are ya going to listen and think, or do you want to just rage against the heavens some more, and make a fool of yourself on this forum? Do you want to learn, or do you just want to make a fool of yourself and attack positions that you don't even understand? (You can't make good arguments if you don't understand what you're arguing against. This entire topic is you raging about things you have no clue about, essentially making a fool of yourself and attacking anyone who calls you out on it.)

By the way... If you're here to rant about your hatred of God and Christianity, then you're at the wrong forum. There's probably plenty of other forums out there devoted to that. You want to do that? Go ranting over there instead.
I never said I hated god or Christianity id appreciate it if you didn't try to put words in my mouth.


When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property. (Exod. 21:20-21)
Please explain.

Now if there's some other interpretation that I'm missing here please tell me.


In what possible way do you agree the above passage is an acceptable instruction to give people?

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#205

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:08 pm

outlaw wrote:
When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property. (Exod. 21:20-21)
Outlaw,

Did you bother to read the chapter in exodus that you cherry picked these verses from?
These verses speak about the punishment when a slave dies.

You can no more say God condones slavery, than the US condones rape, because the US has laws against rape. Like it or not, slavery was a big part of the ANE at that time. Just like rape is an unfortunate part of society today. That's why we have laws against rape. For the love of intellectual honesty, do yourself a favor, and stop getting cherry picked verses off atheist sites to try to discredit God and the bible. Read the bible for yourself, just like you'd read any other book. Then you can see proper context.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#206

Post by outlaw » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:35 pm

RickD wrote:
outlaw wrote:
When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property. (Exod. 21:20-21)
Outlaw,

Did you bother to read the chapter in exodus that you cherry picked these verses from?
These verses speak about the punishment when a slave dies.

You can no more say God condones slavery, than the US condones rape, because the US has laws against rape. Like it or not, slavery was a big part of the ANE at that time. Just like rape is an unfortunate part of society today. That's why we have laws against rape. For the love of intellectual honesty, do yourself a favor, and stop getting cherry picked verses off atheist sites to try to discredit God and the bible. Read the bible for yourself, just like you'd read any other book. Then you can see proper context.

Yes, you can beat them as long as they don't die immediately.

Now your god seems to think this is fine, now I ask, do you think it's fine?

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#207

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:51 pm

outlaw wrote:
I answered you
No, you didn't answer me. You continue to evade the question.

Your self-righteousness is amazing. Get off your high moral horse: if you buy a product manufactured or grown or transformed in a cheap-labor country, you are participating in an economy which exploits people.

And will you please CUT THE CRAP! You are communicating on an electronic device made in a Third World country where the employees are exploited! Are you that ignorant?!

So, do the test,

http://www.slaveryfootprint.org

I want to know how many slaves work for you.

FL y~o)
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#208

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:23 pm

FYI,
I have 46 slaves working for me. :oops:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#209

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:44 pm

RickD wrote:FYI,
I have 46 slaves working for me. :oops:
Lucky you! I only have 38. I think it may be because I buy Fair Trade coffee... Tomorrow, I'm switchin' to Folgers! An' I gotta git me some more Bangladeshi T-shirts...oh, yeah, and bananas from Honduras. Do I need wine? Nope...no poor country makes wine...I need RUM! and a bag of SUGAR! Gotta git me a Brazillian VW! An I need a new computer made in Malaysia by underpaid & overworked ladies...my old computer can be sent to a landfill in India where poor slobs take it apart piece-by-piece and slowly git themselves sick with all the toxic stuff...

I'll have more slaves workin' fer me in no time...

FL :mrgreen:

PS: outlaw, you son-of-a-gun maybe you kin show us how youse so righteous an' all, what wit havin' no slaves at all...
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

#210

Post by outlaw » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:11 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
outlaw wrote:
I answered you
No, you didn't answer me. You continue to evade the question.

Your self-righteousness is amazing. Get off your high moral horse: if you buy a product manufactured or grown or transformed in a cheap-labor country, you are participating in an economy which exploits people.

And will you please CUT THE CRAP! You are communicating on an electronic device made in a Third World country where the employees are exploited! Are you that ignorant?!

So, do the test,

http://www.slaveryfootprint.org

I want to know how many slaves work for you.

FL y~o)
I acknowledged the fact that I inadvertently buy products from time to time that may come from exploited employees, and if the law wants to see me as a slave owner then they can come and arrest me . Your drawing a long bow with this argument as I said I'm not keeping people as property I have no direct control over the treatment of these people I'm not even sure these people are being forced against their will to work in these places. I am not treating anyone that I have contact with as a slave.

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