Is the bible a moral authority?

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#16

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:45 pm

Echoside wrote:What is the boiling point of water?
I don't want to participate in this discussion because I think you are doing an excellent job. As far as the answer to your question above, the boiling point of water is absolute: water boils when it reaches its vapor pressure. As morals are absolute, so are the constants of physics.

Carry on.

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#17

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:11 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Echoside wrote:What is the boiling point of water?
I don't want to participate in this discussion because I think you are doing an excellent job. As far as the answer to your question above, the boiling point of water is absolute: water boils when it reaches its vapor pressure. As morals are absolute, so are the constants of physics.

Carry on.

FL y:-B

What if you boil a pot of water, wait for it to stop boiling after taking it off the heat, then place the pot in an ice bath, it will reboil even though it has not reached boiling temperature. :eugeek:


Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#18

Post by MAGSolo » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:40 am

Echoside wrote:
MAGSolo wrote: I define absolute as complete or unchanging, perfect in definition. What it is today is what it was 1000 years in the past and what it will be 1000 years in the future. For example the constituents of water are absolute. Water was made of H20 a billion years ago and it will be made of h20 a billion years from now.
Let's look at a different question, that's more applicable to my thoughts on -most- questions of morality.

What is the boiling point of water?

Without bringing in any assumptions about the question, it's unanswerable. We do not know, for example, the atmospheric pressure at the water's location. If I modified my question to : What is the boiling point of water at standard atmospheric pressure? There is now an "objective" answer of 100 degrees Celsius. The boiling point of water might change if I increased my elevation 2 miles, but the answer to the question is absolute. Water will not suddenly start to boil at 0 degrees Celsius given the same conditions.

Now let's look at the question, Is it wrong to kill? Same as above, the question is unanswerable. It doesn't even make sense, the act of killing is not inherently wrong, it is the conditions around it that make it correct or incorrect. Now if I ask "under the conditions of the early Hebrews in the OT was the killing commanded by God wrong" we have something to go on. Most Christians would say no. And that is an objective answer to a specific question. It is not possible that those same circumstances are reproduced and the act is NOT justified.


MAGSolo wrote: Likewise absolute morality would men that what is right or wrong a billion years ago would still be right and wrong a billion years in the future.
If the exact conditions of biblical times one billion years in the future were reproduced, they would still be justified. There will only ever be ONE objective answer to all questions of morality. Most of them just don't make any sense to answer, given statements like "is stealing wrong?". All cases of stealing that are the same have an absolute answer. And if they are not the same then to criticize them for not being uniform is senseless.
Okay. So in answer to my original question--are the teachings of the bible morally perfect and infallible--would you answer yes to that question?

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#19

Post by Echoside » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:44 am

MAGSolo wrote: Okay. So in answer to my original question--are the teachings of the bible morally perfect and infallible--would you answer yes to that question?
that's correct

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#20

Post by MAGSolo » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:07 pm

So anything that is taught in the bible would be an acceptable way to live ones life or for a group of people (like a country maybe) to live their lives?

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#21

Post by Byblos » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:31 pm

MAGSolo wrote:So anything that is taught in the bible would be an acceptable way to live ones life or for a group of people (like a country maybe) to live their lives?
Seriously, how many times do we need to go down this road? :shakehead:
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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

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Post by MAGSolo » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:38 pm

I would think as many times as it takes to get the question answered in a satisfactory manner.

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#23

Post by Byblos » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:51 pm

MAGSolo wrote:I would think as many times as it takes to get the question answered in a satisfactory manner.
Okay, Mag, then you tell me, what would it take to answer your questions (whatever they may be) to your satisfaction? Please draw me a line in the sand so I know when I've crossed it I can say for certain that your questions have been answered.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#24

Post by MAGSolo » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:58 pm

I think its a simple matter of whatever one says holding up to scrutiny, logic, and reason. Its not as hard as you make it seem, either an answer makes sense or it doesnt. The problem is that a lot of what is written in the bible seems to be a bit hard to defend.

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#25

Post by RickD » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:13 pm

MAGSolo wrote:So anything that is taught in the bible would be an acceptable way to live ones life or for a group of people (like a country maybe) to live their lives?
MAGSolo, what specifically do you have in mind here? Are you asking, for example, are the specific laws given to Old Testament Israel, laws that a modern country should live by?
The entire bible is written for us. Even though not all of scripture is written to us. Comprende Usted?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#26

Post by 1over137 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:34 pm

One absolute moral may be: Do not lie!

Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Proverbs 19:9 ESV
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.

Proverbs 12:22 ESV
Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.

Colossians 3:9-10 ESV
Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Psalm 101:7 ESV
No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#27

Post by jlay » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:44 pm

So anything that is taught in the bible would be an acceptable way to live ones life or for a group of people (like a country maybe) to live their lives?
Not necessarily. What conditions are you thinking of? For example, NT teachings are never presented as something to be enforced as a law of the land. They are given as instructions for people who believe in Christ. In fact, we are told not to try to judge or govern those outside the faith. However, there are some things in the scripture, that if practiced, even non-beleivers would benefit from. Other things would be a total disaster.
MAGSolo wrote:I would think as many times as it takes to get the question answered in a satisfactory manner.
Your question is loaded. If you really think that we can't see a question loaded with presuppositions, bias, and a disdain for the Bible, then you are foolin yourself.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#28

Post by MAGSolo » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:42 pm

jlay wrote:
So anything that is taught in the bible would be an acceptable way to live ones life or for a group of people (like a country maybe) to live their lives?
Not necessarily. What conditions are you thinking of? For example, NT teachings are never presented as something to be enforced as a law of the land. They are given as instructions for people who believe in Christ. In fact, we are told not to try to judge or govern those outside the faith. However, there are some things in the scripture, that if practiced, even non-beleivers would benefit from. Other things would be a total disaster.
MAGSolo wrote:I would think as many times as it takes to get the question answered in a satisfactory manner.
Your question is loaded. If you really think that we can't see a question loaded with presuppositions, bias, and a disdain for the Bible, then you are foolin yourself.
They are questions asked from a skeptical viewpoint yes. I dont see why that should matter though

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#29

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:20 pm

MAGSolo wrote:
jlay wrote:
So anything that is taught in the bible would be an acceptable way to live ones life or for a group of people (like a country maybe) to live their lives?
Not necessarily. What conditions are you thinking of? For example, NT teachings are never presented as something to be enforced as a law of the land. They are given as instructions for people who believe in Christ. In fact, we are told not to try to judge or govern those outside the faith. However, there are some things in the scripture, that if practiced, even non-beleivers would benefit from. Other things would be a total disaster.
MAGSolo wrote:I would think as many times as it takes to get the question answered in a satisfactory manner.
Your question is loaded. If you really think that we can't see a question loaded with presuppositions, bias, and a disdain for the Bible, then you are foolin yourself.
They are questions asked from a skeptical viewpoint yes. I dont see why that should matter though

Because when you get an answer which is logical, you reject it because of your preconceived bias's.

You have a very limited black and white understanding of the Bible, there is more to this book than just a plain reading.


Dan
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Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is the bible a moral authority?

#30

Post by Echoside » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:48 pm

MAGSolo wrote:So anything that is taught in the bible would be an acceptable way to live ones life or for a group of people (like a country maybe) to live their lives?
Did you not read anything I said?

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