How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

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jlay
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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#46

Post by jlay » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:02 pm

Well, I would disagree with philip. Belief is enough. Of course, right belief in the right thing. And I can honestly say, I don't know what you believed in. You say you 'felt' something, and I would love to hear you elaborate on this. Jesus is Lord, so we don't 'make' Him anything. Although I know that isn't exactly what Philip is saying. The one thing we are commanded to do to be saved is believe. Of course it is more nuanced than that. Obviously we need to beleive on Jesus for something. Thus we know we are condemned, need saving and are trusting the life and work of Christ for our salvation. If you did this, there is little doubt in my mind that you are saved. Scripture does say that even the elect can be deceived, so I don't see it as incomprehensible that a believer can doubt and be deceived.

In fact, i would say it is possible that you did truly 'beleive' and you are truly saved, even though you now deny that. If you are in denial, then it is quite possible that the reason you are here is you are doubting your denial. If you are a 'true' beleiver then you will never find peace in your rebellion. When I look back on the times of doubt in my life i see the areas where God was chastening me in love back into His arms. I've seen people, including myself, walk through this before. Obviously, we can't see into your mind, but my guess is you are not so confident. I've spoken with some bull headed, ardent atheist before. And some of them have confessed that their skepticism wasn't all it was cracked up to be.
Of course, hind sight is 20/20. It could be that you had an experience, which created a feeling, and your faith was in the feeling. When the feelings left, so did the faith. But you see, this isn't biblcal faith. Our feelings can and do deceive us. Feelings can be good, but they should always follow and not lead.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#47

Post by Philip » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:04 pm

jlay wrote: Well, I would disagree with philip. Belief is enough. Of course, right belief in the right thing.
Of COURSE, belief is enough, as well as "belief in the right thing." As for my phrasing, "make him Lord," I'm simply saying that you are: 1) accepting and believing in Him as He truly is (He's the Creator, Redeemer and Resurrected Lord); 2) Which includes true repentance and confessed sorrow to God concerning your sins; 3) Asking for forgiveness of those sins; 4) And are letting go of your self-direction and control, as you are replacing your self-lordship, by rightfully embracing Him as your NEW and ONLY Lord and "BOSS."

And so, jlay, I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with me over? But as for your assertion concerning "FEELINGS" - by all means feelings are no barometer of true faith. What matters is that one has done what Romans 10:9 says that all those saved must do: "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." And so, IF you have done these, and IF your belief in Jesus and confession were sincere, then you ARE saved!

People want to tack on a lot more requirements, but it's MAN who often makes salvation appear complicated - not God!

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#48

Post by jlay » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:55 am

Of COURSE, belief is enough, as well as "belief in the right thing." As for my phrasing, "make him Lord," I'm simply saying that you are: 1) accepting and believing in Him as He truly is (He's the Creator, Redeemer and Resurrected Lord); 2) Which includes true repentance and confessed sorrow to God concerning your sins; 3) Asking for forgiveness of those sins; 4) And are letting go of your self-direction and control, as you are replacing your self-lordship, by rightfully embracing Him as your NEW and ONLY Lord and "BOSS."
Philip, not to derail the thread, but we have a much different view of belief, and in fact I see you tacking on several things. Allow me to explain. Your view is what is called Lordship salvation. It says a person must feel a certain amount of sorrow, confess enough or the 'right' way. It conflates repentance to changing or reforming one's behavior. And, you say 4) that a person must essentially surrender. Surrender in this case being forsaking one's old ways. Well, that is not belief. That means salvation, in one way or another, is conditioned on the person reforming or pledging to reform their life. The problem is that a sinner is dead in their sin, and completely incapable of doing any such thing. At, least incapable of following through on it.
Should we feel sorrow for our sin? Of course. Can we ever truly feel enough sorrow? No. Belief is belief. Trusting Jesus Christ.
Should we change the way we live? Absolutely. And once a person believes on Christ, then they are now in position to do so. Afterall, they are (positionally)100% justified and righteous. But if those things are required, then belief is not enough. Belief +_________= salvation.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#49

Post by snorider » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:12 pm

Humans, for the most part want to help each other. Many people think that without a moral guide book the world will break out in anarchy. Yes, some of the unintelligent will find an excuse to cause havoc, no different than a person washing their sins every week that is already causing havoc.

Humans tend to want to be good people, religion gives them excuse to do bad things. Would someone blow themself up if they knew this was their only life to live?
Christianity doesn't get off the hook either, the pope condemning condemn, abortion clinic bombings, all in the name of good.

Now, you will say yes, these are extremists. Religion affects everything around us whether you know it or not, now most Christians are good, believe it or not most muslims are peaceful as well. The news only broadcasts the extremists.

Now, what if we didn't have any religion until we discover what is true? Let's figure it out as a human species, not conflicting nations wasting human lives to prove their religion is correct. If we work together we can find answers faster.

Obviously God did not make it easy if there are many conflicting religions on this planet claiming they are right.

-Jordan

P.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#50

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:20 pm

You do realise that atheism is a religion too, claiming they have the truth, trying to convert people, now they are even thinking of building atheist churches. :pound:

You post is a little ironic, your views are a little extremist, much like Stalins...........................
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#51

Post by snorider » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:01 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:You do realise that atheism is a religion too, claiming they have the truth, trying to convert people, now they are even thinking of building atheist churches. :pound:

You post is a little ironic, your views are a little extremist, much like Stalins...........................
Do you have a question? I'm not sure where you're going here.

Trying to convert people? Isn't that what most parents do to their children from birth? How many children inherit their parent's beliefs?

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#52

Post by Philip » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:09 pm

jlay, you might just understand the plain meaning of Scripture if you'd just ake off those out-of-focus Five-Lensed glasses you have on! We're talking to someone struggling with belief, and you've got to interject your twisted belief that He CAN'T just repent and have faith, which Scripture repeatedly encourages all to do, but you apparently insist that one must wait upon some unScriptural "regeneration." But what I am saying is that he CAN obey Romans 10:9, ANYTIME he so desires to. And so it's no more complicated than that, but that his response much be sincere. And I said absolutely NOTHING about feelings or that there is some paint-by-numbers way of coming to salvation.

You had best be extremely careful when you begin talking about who can obey Scriptures relating to salvation - as you have absolutely NO knowledge of whether they cannot - or if they just refuse to. But if you are in any way hindering or discouraging a person from coming to the Lord, by burdening them with this Calvinist propaganda, then you will have to face the Lord over it. We're told Cornelius (while STILL "dead in his sins"), over a significant period, obeyed God's prompting, sought the Lord, constantly prayed - and Scripture says God honored him for this by sending Peter. And so God honors OBEDIENCE. And so Cornelius sought God and was obedient to Him, WELL before He was actually saved.

I really don't want to get into this pointless debate, but I would like to encourage one I see struggling with belief, and certainly not start talking about some gloomy, depressing, 16 century theological nonsense! That's pretty pathetic!

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#53

Post by RickD » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:30 pm

Jlay, when did you go Calvinist on us? :pound:

Philip, jlay ain't no Calvinist. Unless Wesley Arminianism is the same as Calvinism. :pound:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#54

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:32 pm

snorider wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:You do realise that atheism is a religion too, claiming they have the truth, trying to convert people, now they are even thinking of building atheist churches. :pound:

You post is a little ironic, your views are a little extremist, much like Stalins...........................
Do you have a question? I'm not sure where you're going here.

Trying to convert people? Isn't that what most parents do to their children from birth? How many children inherit their parent's beliefs?

No question just respoding to your post, on one hand you slam extremist religious people yet have an extremist view point yourself and also forgetting that your world view has a religious element to it.

Speaking from experience my parents never tried to shove their beliefs onto me, they let me make my own choices no matter how bad they were.

I grew up in a Christian home but as a teen and yourng adult I left the church as I didn't believe it and went to live my life how I wanted too, at no point did my parents try to indoctrinate or put any pressure to sway me from the path I was taking.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#55

Post by narnia4 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:45 pm

Hey, I'm the Calvinist here. But there's nothing to be said about Calvinism here really...

I agree with jlay that sola fide is at the heart of the gospel message and you have to be very careful how you word/think about these things. Any addition of works to the Gospel and its no longer the Gospel. I do think that sometimes some things are lost in translation from one person to another, I'm just saying you have to be careful.
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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#56

Post by Philip » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:55 am

jlay wrote: The problem is that a sinner is dead in their sin, and completely incapable of doing any such thing. At, least incapable of following through on it.
Did I miss or misinterpret jlay? Sure sounded pretty Five Pointish to me. If I did, I sincerely apologize. It's just that when I smell someone asserting this or that person CAN'T do what Scripture says for him to do - well, let's just say it evokes a bit of reaction in me.

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#57

Post by jlay » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:45 pm

Wow, I'm a 5PC!! Amazing.

Philip, I don't think there has been a more ardent opponent of 5PC on this forum than myself. That is EXACTLY the opposition I have to your position. Lordship salvation is very much a 5PC position. Which, whether you realize it or not, is what you are espousing.
When I say a sinner is incapable of reforming their life, I am saying that a reformed sinner is well....a sinner. I am not saying they are incapable of believing the Gospel. I place regeneration in the power of the message, that being the Gospel.

What I am saying is that I believe you are using (for lack of a better word) a reformed definition of "repent." You are saying that a sinner must do MORE than believe. That he must feel the right amount of sorrow.......... Well, just go back and read my last post a little more carefully.

Belief is ENOUGH. Not belief plus forsaking sin, confessing, making Jesus Lord, etc. Trusting in Christ, period!!
snorider wrote:Trying to convert people? Isn't that what most parents do to their children from birth? How many children inherit their parent's beliefs
How many children reject of rebel against their parents beliefs? Who cares. Genetic fallacy.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#58

Post by narnia4 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:54 pm

While trying to avoid derailing further, I'll only add that not all 5PC are Lordship proponents. And trying not to rehash currently dead topics, I'll also add that a great many Calvinists would be taken aback by some of what's been insisted that they must believe in order to be Calvinists. In fact, some of what's said about Calvinists are the antithesis of the reasons I'm willing to give myself that label. Now I don't think any would argue when I say that the position certainly isn't limited to any tradition or denomination, its everywhere.

To try to address the original post, I don't think we should necessarily "give up" on people, but we have to be willing to change approaches or "shake the dust off our handles". Sometimes our timing doesn't line up with God's timing or the person's timing. Sometimes getting preachy at the wrong time can lead to disastrous results. On the other hand, its never the wrong time to show Christian love and charity imo.
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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#59

Post by jlay » Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:18 am

Narnia,

Fair enough. Let me clarify. Lordship Salvation is strongly promoted today by neo-calvanists such as John McCarthur. I should have said that LS is a natural fit for 5PC. Specifically what is termed back-door LS. Even more specifically the P in TULIP. That believers WILL do certain things, and if those things are absent then salvation was never there, and thus never elected.

Yes, LS is more widespread than 5PC. In fact it is also very evident in Wesleyen theology. And I promise it is not my intent to derail this into another 5PC thread. And actually what I was criticizing Philip for is front door LS. That one must go through a check list...

1) repent (being a reformed definition of the word such as 'forsake or turn from your sin.)
2) Put Jesus first (in other words, stop putting other things first such as money, work, etc.)
3) Feel really bad. (Some sort of scale where a bell rings in heaven.) (pardon my sarcasm)
4) Confess all your sins. (Most people have forgotten the vast majority.)

5) Oh, and trust Jesus. But make sure you are sincere, in your heart, and of course really sincere. You've got to believe the right way.

I don't want to minimize faith, or promote casual acknowledgment. But belief is belief. Faith alone. The above list only shows that many who promote 'faith alone' are doing anything but.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: How concerned should we be towards stubborn lost people?

#60

Post by narnia4 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:00 am

A lot of people do confuse what usually (or always, depending on your view) accompanies faith with faith itself. Then there are those like MacArthur who out-and-out state that these other things *are* a part of faith (which confuses me, given the Reformers' definition of faith). Of course this isn't news to you or anything, but I'm just reiterating that we're on the same page with this one.
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