Why is good good and evil evil?

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ultimate777
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Why is good good and evil evil?

#1

Post by ultimate777 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:16 am

Can God absolutely decide what is good and what is evil?

If not why not?

If so, does He ever change things like that to suit his purposes? Then does He change them right back afterwards?

There were laws the King of Persia could not change in the Book of Esther IIRC. But the KIng changed one anyhow.

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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#2

Post by Icthus » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:09 am

According to the concept of God inherent in Classical Theism, God is unchanging. He will not, therefore, flip flop between positions. Though he has, in the past, implemented and removed certain restrictions as he provided further revelation, his ultimate moral law is constant.
“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.” -G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#3

Post by Byblos » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:20 am

Icthus wrote:According to the concept of God inherent in Classical Theism, God is unchanging. He will not, therefore, flip flop between positions. Though he has, in the past, implemented and removed certain restrictions as he provided further revelation, his ultimate moral law is constant.
He IS the ultimate moral law, He IS the ultimate good. He cannot change that any more than saying X is not X.
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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#4

Post by Icthus » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:37 am

Byblos wrote:
Icthus wrote:According to the concept of God inherent in Classical Theism, God is unchanging. He will not, therefore, flip flop between positions. Though he has, in the past, implemented and removed certain restrictions as he provided further revelation, his ultimate moral law is constant.
He IS the ultimate moral law, He IS the ultimate good. He cannot change that any more than saying X is not X.
Yes, sorry for not making that clear. My understanding of theology is still pretty primitive. I'm so used to dealing with those that don't even believe a God exists that I've tended to neglect studying many of the finer points of our religion. I've only recently gotten into some of the greatest thinkers on the subject of the divine nature.
“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.” -G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#5

Post by ultimate777 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:50 pm

Byblos wrote:
Icthus wrote:According to the concept of God inherent in Classical Theism, God is unchanging. He will not, therefore, flip flop between positions. Though he has, in the past, implemented and removed certain restrictions as he provided further revelation, his ultimate moral law is constant.
He IS the ultimate moral law, He IS the ultimate good. He cannot change that any more than saying X is not X.

So, not even God can make something true and false at the same time?

If God can't do that, where does it end?

I suppose He couldn't turn bread into His flesh, or wine into His blood and make it still bread and wine, also?

I don't think He chooses to do so, but I think He could if He wanted to.

You going to tell him he can't?

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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#6

Post by jlay » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:01 pm

ultimate777 wrote:So, not even God can make something true and false at the same time?

If God can't do that, where does it end?

I suppose He couldn't turn bread into His flesh, or wine into His blood and make it still bread and wine, also?

I don't think He chooses to do so, but I think He could if He wanted to.

You going to tell him he can't?
You are looking at this wrong. God can't do what is logically absurd, such as create a square circle. A square circle is not a thing. Something can not be true and false at the same time. It is an absurdity. It isn't a possibility. What is true can not be false in the same thing, and same way at the same time. Study up on the law of non-contradiction for more info.

This is a matter of understanding the nature of God. We tend to think that truth is some trait added on to God. It isn't. God is truth. God is goodness. God is love. truth isn't a part of God.
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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#7

Post by Icthus » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:49 pm

If one believes that God is capable of violating the law of noncontradiction the world tends to stop making sense. Why, for instance, would any Christian engage in philosophy or science or study the Bible if noncontradiction didn't hold true. How could one have faith in God if he could be both good and evil, real and imaginary, omnipotent and powerless. Everything would be in chaos (and, I suppose, order at the same time).
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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#8

Post by Byblos » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:56 am

Icthus wrote:If one believes that God is capable of violating the law of noncontradiction the world tends to stop making sense. Why, for instance, would any Christian engage in philosophy or science or study the Bible if noncontradiction didn't hold true. How could one have faith in God if he could be both good and evil, real and imaginary, omnipotent and powerless. Everything would be in chaos (and, I suppose, order at the same time).
:amen: :clap:
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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#9

Post by Philip » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:33 am

If one believes that God is capable of violating the law of noncontradiction the world tends to stop making sense. Why, for instance, would any Christian engage in philosophy or science or study the Bible if noncontradiction didn't hold true. How could one have faith in God if he could be both good and evil, real and imaginary, omnipotent and powerless. Everything would be in chaos (and, I suppose, order at the same time).
You should ask a Five Point Calvinist at least parts of that very question, as many of them assert massive contradictions about God.

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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#10

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:44 am

Philip wrote:
If one believes that God is capable of violating the law of noncontradiction the world tends to stop making sense. Why, for instance, would any Christian engage in philosophy or science or study the Bible if noncontradiction didn't hold true. How could one have faith in God if he could be both good and evil, real and imaginary, omnipotent and powerless. Everything would be in chaos (and, I suppose, order at the same time).
You should ask a Five Point Calvinist at least parts of that very question, as many of them assert massive contradictions about God.
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Philip, you just had to go there didn't you? :pound:
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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#11

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:44 am

ultimate777 wrote:Can God absolutely decide what is good and what is evil?

If not why not?

If so, does He ever change things like that to suit his purposes? Then does He change them right back afterwards?

There were laws the King of Persia could not change in the Book of Esther IIRC. But the KIng changed one anyhow.
Kind of two different questions right?
Why is good, good and why is evil, evil is not the same as if God can change.
IN the bible, the human writers, many times attribute human characteristics to God simply because they need to give the human readers a point of reference or an understanding and since human can only relate to things inhuman terms, what we get is a "humanized" God.
In Genesis, when God is "pondering" on whether to tell Abe what His plans are for Sodom and when He does and Abe "haggles" with God, are we being told that God can be negotiated with? that He may have one plan and can change His mind?
No, what is happening is God allowing Abe to understand what is gonna happen, allowing Abe to come to his OWN understanding of why Sodom is to be destroyed.

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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#12

Post by Philip » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:29 am

Philip, you just had to go there didn't you?
Don't worry, Rick, I won't hijack this thread with that, although it does beg the question: Can God declare something universally evil (say, murder or rape, for instance), and as His decisions are in accordance with His Holy character and will - can He later then declare the very same things to be "good?" If so, this would appear to reveal a God of tremendous inconsistencies, not to mention a God that CHANGES, certainly in how He would view good and evil. Now, there are some actions, that as to whether they are good or bad, can depend upon their situation and context (say I lie to Nazis that there are no Jews hiding in my basement). But some things God has always considered evil, no matter their context. I would say for God to suddenly declare that murder is righteous, that rape is perfectly acceptable, are both impossibilities - akin to Him being able to create a round square.

Now, as God is sovereign and also can choose as He so pleases, He indeed has every authority to declare 180 degree changes as to what He has told us is evil, or He could also implement a variety of direct inconsistencies in what He requires of us - as His are the only standards that truly matter. HOWEVER, if He did such things, He would have to be an entirely different God than what He has revealed about Himself in Scripture. His Holy character and how He ultimately sees things DO NOT CHANGE!

So the question in my first paragraph remains: Can God remain Holy and righteous and yet suddenly declare rape or murder to be good?

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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#13

Post by Philip » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:10 pm

Sorry Rick, but I don't think I went too far on it. But no one answered, so perhaps I did?

Philip

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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#14

Post by RickD » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:16 pm

So the question in my first paragraph remains: Can God remain Holy and righteous and yet suddenly declare rape or murder to be good?
I would say no. I don't see how anyone could logically disagree.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Why is good good and evil evil?

#15

Post by Philip » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:32 pm

Don't worry, Rick, I won't hijack this thread with that, although it does beg the question: Can God declare something universally evil (say, murder or rape, for instance), and as His decisions are in accordance with His Holy character and will - can He later then declare the very same things to be "good?" If so, this would appear to reveal a God of tremendous inconsistencies, not to mention a God that CHANGES, certainly in how He would view good and evil. Now, there are some actions, that as to whether they are good or bad, can depend upon their situation and context (say I lie to Nazis that there are no Jews hiding in my basement). But some things God has always considered evil, no matter their context. I would say for God to suddenly declare that murder is righteous, that rape is perfectly acceptable, are both impossibilities - akin to Him being able to create a round square.

Now, as God is sovereign and also can choose as He so pleases, He indeed has every authority to declare 180 degree changes as to what He has told us is evil, or He could also implement a variety of direct inconsistencies in what He requires of us - as His are the only standards that truly matter. HOWEVER, if He did such things, He would have to be an entirely different God than what He has revealed about Himself in Scripture. His Holy character and how He ultimately sees things DO NOT CHANGE!

So the question in my first paragraph remains: Can God remain Holy and righteous and yet suddenly declare rape or murder to be good?
Rick said: "I would say no. I don't see how anyone could logically disagree.
So tempted to, but I won't grab the bait to comment on those that very well might (and DO!).

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