Who gets into Heaven?

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wazatron
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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#46

Post by wazatron » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:48 am

On that note - God is vengenceful etc God has killed the wicked....therefore we are made in his image......??? I should get my Axe out. Thanks for clarifying this point B.W.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#47

Post by wrain62 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:08 am

How twisted.
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#48

Post by wrain62 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:10 am

But do not please do not take it personally.
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#49

Post by wazatron » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:46 am

Wrain- lol I do not take this personally! Pls note I will not be heading out wih my axe tonight.

I do however find the quote under your name ironic, is this not exactly what god did in times of Noah?

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#50

Post by wrain62 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:58 am

The giver of life can take it away without evil. Playing God is only wrong because it places an abuse of power to those who do not deserve it. God, regardless of how you want to describe him as described in the bible, only did something wrong if he was out of hand if he abused power. But what finite being who does not see the context past, present, and future can judge an abuse of power? Only if he thinks he knows the mind of the accused.

So my answer to your question is no. My quote is not oxymoronic with noah's flood.
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#51

Post by jlay » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:04 am

Uh no.

I just lost an entire response and don't have time. Waz, you admit you are like the rest of us. wicked. A lying, adulterer at heart. So, why do you think that God is like you? If you are going to evaluate the flood, why would you ignore what the Bible reveals about the character and nature of God? is that proper exegesis? Are you imposing your (as you admit) distorted view of god onto the flood while ignoring the entirety of what scripture reveals? I am convinced you are.

God is soveriegn, holy, righteous, eternal, omniscient, just, creator, sinless.
We are limted, constricted, selfish, prejudiced, small, and sinful.

Needless to say, your conclusion fails.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#52

Post by wazatron » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:07 pm

Is god just these things? I'm pretty sure he is also an angry, jealous vengeful god? I can find direct quoted if necessary? But i jave resorted to to my phone, besides I'm sure you are a aware of these.
So which is it? speaking of oxymorons the bible if full if them. Anyway, my objective is not to speak about the characteristics of god or the contradictions of the bible, but rather his existence. this was ymerely a divergence from the topic.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#53

Post by wrain62 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:27 pm

wazatron wrote:Is god just these things? I'm pretty sure he is also an angry, jealous vengeful god? I can find direct quoted if necessary? But i jave resorted to to my phone, besides I'm sure you are a aware of these.
So which is it? speaking of oxymorons the bible if full if them. Anyway, my objective is not to speak about the characteristics of god or the contradictions of the bible, but rather his existence. this was ymerely a divergence from the topic.
Even through the anger, jeolousness, and vengence(or justice) he is still rightious. Isaiah 55:8.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#54

Post by jlay » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:12 pm

Is god just these things? I'm pretty sure he is also an angry, jealous vengeful god? I can find direct quoted if necessary? But i jave resorted to to my phone, besides I'm sure you are a aware of these.
God is loving. Barney the dinosaur is loving. Could it be that we often use the same words but with vastly different meanings depending on context? When you hear "anger" you are asigning a meaning from your own mind, not from the context. Will this result in a distorted perspective? I think so.

Example. I am jealous of my neighbors new John Deere. A mother bear is jealous for her cubs.
Do the words have distinct meanings regarding the context? Yes. That is why proper exegesis is so important.

When the Bible speaks of God's love, anger, jealousy, etc., these can have vastly different contextual meaning. This is common in ancient language just as it is in our own. Just like we use hyperbole, so did the ancients. If I say, "We are going to kill the opposing team," do you think context is important? Or should I be arrested for plotting a murder?

Our love is conditional. Our love is imperfect. Our jealousy, anger and love are subject to emotion. God is immutable and His love, anger and jealousy are perfect. So, is God jealous? yes, absolutey, but not in the way you are using the word. God's love is unconditional, and pure, not warped like what we see today. He doensn't fall in and out of love like some crazy teenager. The Bible says that God is angry with the wicked everyday. That means that god doesn't lose His temper. His response to wickedness is eternally consistent. The book of Jonah is a good picture of this.

In reading the Bible we have to understand the literary concepts applied to the text. Being mostly ancient historical narrative, the Bible incorporates anthropomorphism and hyperbole as was common to the original audience. If we ignore exegetical guidelines, then we are destined to fail. I would strongly encourage a grammatical historical hermaneutic, which asks, what did this literally mean to the original audience.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#55

Post by B. W. » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:04 pm

wazatron wrote:
B.W wrote:Wazatron,
You say you are a good moral person so let me ask you a few questions:
Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever made any demands on anyone?
Ever falsely accused anyone?
Have you ever looked at another human being and lusted in your thoughts in a sexual way?
I CAN HONESTLY ANSWER YES TO ALL THE ABOVE. ESCPECIALLY THE LAST ONE. good luck humanity.
Just returned from collecting clothes for a clothing drive for Native American peoples and was surprised how this thread grew in responses and views! But back to the subject…

Have you made demands on anyone? Well – you are of God, are you not? Wazatron, I guess your statement you made that you are a good moral person is in error. There is no one good, all have sinned and God has no need to have a neighbor in Heaven who demands Him to acquiesce to their standards. Lying in heaven, falsely accuse, lustfulness in heaven – if so how can heaven really be heaven then? That is what sin does, corrupts, causes decay, heartache, loss etc and etc.

Good news is that God so loved the world that he provided a way back to living in heaven. Jesus died on that cross because we put him there. What you think of God, now, put him there. How you have put him on trial, demand of him, put him there. He forgives those that will but believe in what he did on that cross to toss that life line to you. He died a terrible death to win you back and does not violate your right to choose. How can God be just failing to grant you that kind of choice?

So you think you still deserve heaven because you are good – but are you really? Only the Lord of Host can transform any of us into a new creation free from our own corrupting influences. What will you choice be? Remain a person justified to be banished away from God’s presence forever? Or choose to take hold of the life line – Jesus Christ?

wazatron wrote:B.W - a small question for you:
Has god ever KILLED anyone? Has God ever made demands of anyone? big difference between a lie and the total innahalition of the planet (flood)!! But thats OK because hes god and has his own rules. PLEASE!!!! PAH.
The answer is simple – No – God does not technically kill anyone. If annihilation into non-being state were true – then yes God would be guilty of this crime. However, God does not take away life; he placed eternity in the human heart – he is called the living God for a reason. Our mortal being will die and can be killed, but we continue on in our true spiritual state after our mortalness dies. Therefore, God does not technically murder or kill because we continue on after we die. He designed us as eternal beings. That is his gift and calling he made us and for us. He takes not away his gift of life. Humanity took advantage of these things about God and rebelled against God and sinned. In cases where God set to slay mortal beings was to usher them into a just judgment upon entry into their eternal afterlife state due to their state of rebellion and corruption. He did not wipe all out in the great flood – did he?

God knows all things about those people before the Flood. Knows they would remain perverted and corrupt and reject His love and seek make demands from his love so they can – keep getting away with what they were doing. He knows they’ll never return to him so he ushered them into just judgment, yet, still spared who?

Ancient history, text, and archeology have proven the people in ancient times were very brutal, perverse, and wicked. There comes a time to call them to face a final judgment. God is not unjust in this. He banishes such away from him and confines them – he grants them a place where – what they sow – they reap.

You stated a PAH about God’s rules and demands… Let me share how he demands…

God’s own rules is to ask, knock, and seek for an honest answer from your heart. Sin in the heart is what makes demands by saying what you said and mean by PAH… his rule is for us to love each other so we do not lie, lust, covet, steal, falsely accuse, abandon others, etc, and to Love Him so we do not do these things (the very things you honestly admitted to doing).

You hate God because he will not let these good morals of yours corrupt and ruin heaven. What does the Lord do? Sent Jesus Christ into the world to mortally die in your place to spare you from where you, yourself is taking you. Jesus rose from the dead to new life so we can also learn a new way of life that actually matters and carry this on in heaven – where we never rebel again and cause ruin, suffering, as we do now in this mortal life.

What do you do – hate God and falsely accuse him of being unjust just as those did long ago whose hate toward God nailed Him to a cross. Jesus said on the cross – Father forgive them for they know not what to do – and for that you say God makes unfair demand of us? Are you not of him instead?

The Lord forgives those that come to him calling upon him – that is just and fair. You are not even that fair toward God – are you? In fact you are not even that fair to others so much so that you lust, lie, falsely accuse and demand of them and even lie to yourself you are a decent good moral fellow so you can get away with doing things.

There comes a day of judgment (Heb 9:27), where God shows what He has done to persuade you in an honest and just and fair fashion to return to him through what Christ did upon that cross, may you be found to have accepted his demand and sealed with lasting change. If not, you will reap what you sow – eternally. For that, you still desire to put God on trial, mock him, and demand He let you in heaven on your terms? Who is unfair here? You are God?

The life line has been tossed to you. The door set before you. Choose life while you still can draw mortal breath.

Others who reading this and responding to you about Christ can tell you more of the gospel message. I’ll leave it at that for now.
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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#56

Post by kmr » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:30 pm

Ivellious, I understand why you are confused. In order to get into heaven, you need to have yourself transformed into a sinless creature... in other words, both your ability and desire to sin must be taken away. God has offered to do this for us through his son, Jesus Christ... basically, our sins, which make it otherwise impossible to go to heaven, can be eliminated by believing in Christ and repenting, but in order to get into heaven itself we need to actually accept Christ's gift and allow him to change us. This is a huge decision requiring absolute dedication to God, which is why God made it such a heavy choice for us around here. That's why other religions don't offer the way... you need to accept Christ's gift in order to do that. Do you need to know His name for this to happen? No, you can truly seek Him without knowing His name, but you must accept His gift and devote yourself to Him.
- KMR

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#57

Post by wazatron » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:26 am

So, once again we have come full circle. The only way into heaven is to accept Christ. FINAL. END.
Depsite the arguments regarding ignorance etc etc, this has all been blatentanly ignored and once again i have been preached to.

Thanks everyone for your open mindedness and willingness to accept the other point of view.

Its going to be awefully busy in hell. Thats where the party is by the sounds of it.
I wish you all the best in heaven.
May Allah bless you all and forgive you for your sins.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#58

Post by jlay » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:01 am

So, once again we have come full circle. The only way into heaven is to accept Christ. FINAL. END.
If you are determined to reduce it down to that, then absolutely. However, this is a consequential fallacy. If you recall my life preserver example.

By your own admission, you are a sinner. By your own admission, you have distorted conceptions of God. By your own admission, you understand that God has revealed that Christ is the only means by which God has reconciled sinners to Himself. By your own admission you understand that there is no other provision except through Christ.

After all that you simply give God the finger and say "shove it." You are in essence saying God must comply to your distorted notions, which means God must bow his knee to you, or else you will reject Him. Hmmmmm? Let's see, you can say to God, "You must comply to my logic and demands or I'll reject you."
Yet, you say the perfect creator is unjust when He says, "You must trust what I have provided to save you, or you will be rejected."
Sure, that sounds logical. Actually hypocritical.

Heaven is not a means to an end. It certainly isn't presented that way in the Bible. In fact the Bible says that heaven and earth will be destroyed and all things will be made new. Eternal life is a by-product of being made right with your creator. That is you are drowing in an ocean of your own sin. It is of your making. Through your lies, deceit, hatred, and lust you have put yourself at enmity with God. God does everything to atone for your sin, and provide you the simplest of methods to receive it. Trust Christ. That's it. Hell is the result of rejecting God's provision. In a sense telling the man with the life preserver to shove it. So, I would say have fun in an eternity of your own making, but it is terribly tragic.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#59

Post by wazatron » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:27 am

I completely understand and appreciate your arguments. But Jlay, i feel you fail to acknokledge my simpliest and most basic of arguments.

Why Christ? Why Christianity? What makes this the only right religion - Yes- you say this is a consequencial fallacy but others do not appreciate this, its either christianity or nothing at all.
Is it possible your view of God is distorted?
Why is Islam not the chosen religion. Have you read the Koran? If not, how can you make such sweeping statements about Christinaity.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#60

Post by wrain62 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:31 am

Sorry but I had to fix a misrepresentation of what we believe when you said that God was not right to do what he did(according to the Christian standard). It irked.
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.

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