Who gets into Heaven?

Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#31

Post by CallMeDave » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:01 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Where does it say that good people who are charitable, have integrity and are nice get to Heaven? Which holy book says this? I'm just curious.

FL
There is only one appointed way to get to heaven, and that is based on the total sufficiency of Christs atoning death for us because we cant help ourselves or do anything to merit it. It has to be TOTALLY CHRIST or none at all. The Bible says its a free undeserved gift of love from God . Only after recieving Christ do good works thru a changed heart show evidence that a true salvation experience has been had.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#32

Post by jlay » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:12 am

Crickets are chirping?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#33

Post by wazatron » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:29 am

Of course your birth determines your faith!! and according to this determines whether you get in to heaven?

Dumokunrox - please explain to me to then a child born in India will be taught the hindu faith. And like you will believe this to be true without question. However, as in christianity beliving in false gods or idols is a sin?? Therefore, screwing 1 billion people to hell immediately.

In many poor areas where there is no education available people cannot question their beliefs and what they are told is in their opinion fact.

If God is all powerful why does the devil exist?
So on one side you have God trying to make humans believe in him..... and the other side you have the devil whispering in our ears telling us to do evil things - what does make humans? A game? Guinee pigs? A bet? Lets see who can convince the most people!!
With the consequece spending an eternity in hell?

For an all loving God i find this very difficult to believe...
I would rather not exist at all then have the possibilty of spending an eternity in fire being tortered!

in my OPINION religion is the cause of ALL evil

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#34

Post by CallMeDave » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:18 am

wazatron wrote:Of course your birth determines your faith!! and according to this determines whether you get in to heaven?

Dumokunrox - please explain to me to then a child born in India will be taught the hindu faith. And like you will believe this to be true without question. However, as in christianity beliving in false gods or idols is a sin?? Therefore, screwing 1 billion people to hell immediately.

In many poor areas where there is no education available people cannot question their beliefs and what they are told is in their opinion fact.

If God is all powerful why does the devil exist?
So on one side you have God trying to make humans believe in him..... and the other side you have the devil whispering in our ears telling us to do evil things - what does make humans? A game? Guinee pigs? A bet? Lets see who can convince the most people!!
With the consequece spending an eternity in hell?

For an all loving God i find this very difficult to believe...
I would rather not exist at all then have the possibilty of spending an eternity in fire being tortered!

in my OPINION religion is the cause of ALL evil
I agree...religion is a cause of many problems. Thats why Jesus himself denounced religion and said its a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with God that counts .

DUe to free will , there is a possibility for you to do good or evil just as there is a possibility to rebel against God if you so choose. A Godless eternity is chosen by us, and God simply grants what we always wanted while on earth. Now is the time to get right with Christ and make him your Lord and King of your life. Then it will be safe for you to physically die and for eternity to start.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#35

Post by jlay » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:50 am

Dumokunrox - please explain to me to then a child born in India will be taught the hindu faith. And like you will believe this to be true without question. However, as in christianity beliving in false gods or idols is a sin?? Therefore, screwing 1 billion people to hell immediately.
This is a consequential fallacy.

This assumes, first that people will be judged by their ignorance. And, 2ndly assumes that God's hand is too short. One of the greatest apologists of today is Ravi Zacharias, who was born into this kind of culture.
The question is what are you going to do with the knowledge YOU have?
If God is all powerful why does the devil exist?

If God is all powerful why do you exist?
For an all loving God i find this very difficult to believe...
I would rather not exist at all then have the possibilty of spending an eternity in fire being tortered!
You have to exist to make this statement. A non-existant person is not a thing. It's a logical contradiction.
I'm curious how you make these judgments?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#36

Post by wazatron » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:15 am

This assumes, first that people will be judged by their ignorance. And, 2ndly assumes that God's hand is too short. One of the greatest apologists of today is Ravi Zacharias, who was born into this kind of culture.
The question is what are you going to do with the knowledge YOU have?

If god exists, are Atheists not ignorant? Surely then everyone who does not believe in Jesus is ignorant and should be spared thereby eliminating religion altogether.
And if the knowledge you have is not Christianity? What if i was born in a tribe in the midde of the jungle where i was taught eating human hearts brought me closer to God, This is the knowledge i have, i believe this to be true. How am i to know any different? As far as i know i am being a good in Gods eyes.
If God is all powerful why does the devil exist?

If God is all powerful why do you exist?

This is a interesting answer. I have not set up camp in hell, daming the souls who do not believe in God, contantly plotting to take over heaven!!! - I am no threat to God whereas the Devil apparently is!?
For an all loving God i find this very difficult to believe...
I would rather not exist at all then have the possibilty of spending an eternity in fire being tortered!
You have to exist to make this statement. A non-existant person is not a thing. It's a logical contradiction.
I'm curious how you make these judgments?[/quote]


Yes i agree i have to exist to make this statement. So now in order to go to heaven i have no 'choice' but to believe in God or be damned to Hell! Absolutley ridiculous. Therefore, i would rather not exist!
God seems very shallow to me.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#37

Post by CallMeDave » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:45 am

'Yes i agree i have to exist to make this statement. So now in order to go to heaven i have no 'choice' but to believe in God or be damned to Hell! Absolutley ridiculous. Therefore, i would rather not exist!
God seems very shallow to me'

REPLY: Where do you get this idea that 'you have no choice' ????? If I were to toss you a Life Preserver because you fell overboard into the ocean from a ship, dont you have a choice whether to take it or let it float past you ? God has thrown the entire human race a Life Preserver which is the only way of saving a Person from certain destruction ; if you dont take it then its your own fault. What is so ridiculous about this ? Unfortunately, you cannot not exist because you do.....so, what wise people do that exist is to stop distancing Oneself from their Creator and surrender their pride and rebellion to God by taking the free undeserved LIfe Preserver which is your eternal life line , called Jesus Christ the Son of God. Would you rather let the Life Preserver float by you so you are totally without a chance ? That too is your choice which God will respect.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#38

Post by jlay » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:47 am

If god exists, are Atheists not ignorant? Surely then everyone who does not believe in Jesus is ignorant and should be spared thereby eliminating religion altogether.
Atheist by definition is one who KNOWINGLY denies God. Agnostic is a word synonomous with ignorance.
Regardless of what culture you go to, people understand the basics of right and wrong. For example, you will not find a culture that reveres stealing. People know it is wrong to lie, whether they've ever heard about Jesus or not. Perhaps people are judged because they rebel against against what they know. Why should God let wicked people into his Kingdom? Further, why would He let you in? Even though He has offered you pardon if you will only trust Christ. And yet you say, I'd rather knowingly reject the offer. I'd rather not have been born. You can mention people in jungles or other areas, but that still doesn't answer YOUR question. What will you do with Christ.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. It's a mistake is to assume that people will be condemned for their ignorance. I'm confident that no "good" person will end up in Hell.
This is a interesting answer. I have not set up camp in hell, daming the souls who do not believe in God, contantly plotting to take over heaven!!! - I am no threat to God whereas the Devil apparently is!?
Yes, so why would you knowingly side with the enemy of God?
So now in order to go to heaven i have no 'choice' but to believe in God or be damned to Hell! Absolutley ridiculous. Therefore, i would rather not exist!
God seems very shallow to me.
Shallow indeed. That is like a man drowing in the ocean. Someone comes along, throws him a life preserer, and the man says, "What kind of choice is that?!?! Either I drown, or I am forced to receive your gracious offer of salvation"
What would you think of a such a man?
It is obvious why. You have very set ideas in your own mind. You say, "to me." Have you considered the fact that you might be wrong? y/:) Have you considered that your ideas on God may be distorted by your own rebellion? Are you an open minded person or not? You sound a lot like the man in the ocean, who is most certainly not open minded or open to the idea that they might be wrong.

Well you do have a choice. It is apparent you have skipped right over other explanations in this thread. You seem determined to hold on to your distorted views of God no matter what anyone says. You need to repent. That is, you need to abandon an old way of thinking to embrace a new. You need to stop treading water, and shaking your angry fist in the face of a God, who has revealed a Savior to you. You are drowing in a sea of sin. Your rebellion is obvious to anyone on this board. The sea is of your own making. You have cursed the very God who died to save you. And yet while you rebel, He still died for you. Even as you spit on his offer, He still holds out his hand if you will only grab hold.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#39

Post by jlay » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:49 am

Praise God Dave, I was typing my reply on the life preserver at the exact same time as you. Very little to argue against God's love demonstrated for Waz.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#40

Post by CallMeDave » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:52 pm

jlay wrote:Praise God Dave, I was typing my reply on the life preserver at the exact same time as you. Very little to argue against God's love demonstrated for Waz.

PTL....God works in mysterious yet definitive ways !
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#41

Post by wazatron » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:43 am

Morning!
More concrete evidence for God? Or have you two been listening to too many of the same sermans every sunday?

Jlay and Dave - you both write beautiful and compelling arguments, so much so that i do believe my beliefs surrounding God are distorted and i could be wrong about his existence. But there is no way to prove/disprove his existence without following blindly.
I am sorry i cannot be a sheep, in my opinion there are too many unanswered questions and i cannot blindly believe, no matter how much i would want to believe in this magnificent being in the sky looking over me. It would be wonderful, but i dont buy it (yet!).
My feeling is, you believe in God because there are no definitive answers as to why we exist, to create such a spectacular being which is the answer to EVERYTHING, again suggests lack of knowledge and in my opinion is ignorant, worse than saying ' i do not know the answer'.
Look at the Greek gods for example, look how these perceptions have changed over the years due to the advancements of knowledge.

Life preserver... - why do i HAVE to be saved by God? I am not a murderer, rapist, thief etc etc, i lead a good and moral life yet this is still not enough for your god, i have to commit myself to him? WHY? Why does God need this gratification from me?
To quote you...
'Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. It's a mistake is to assume that people will be condemned for their ignorance. I'm confident that no "good" person will end up in Hell.'
- So why do we have to belive in your god (and not the jewish/muslim god) if no good person will end up in hell.
Surely u can see my point here?

Jlay - i am not satisifed by your answers you give regards to the devils existence. God cannot be all loving and powerful if such a force exists? - please look at my earlier arguments.

Unfortunately, i am not convinced without a doubt that God exists and my mind refuses to over look such strong tangible evidence provided by science in terms of evolution et al, which religion outright ignores/denies (or in cases adjusts its belief system to account for it, depending on the 'different sects').

Guys - do you believe in evolution? How does this undeniable FACT (depsite it being called a thoery) fit into relgion.
Jlay - can i ask why you believe in God and how you know for certain you are correct?

I will sit on the fence with my agnostic beliefs as i do not know the answers, as does anyone.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#42

Post by B. W. » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:38 am

wazatron wrote:Morning!
More concrete evidence for God? Or have you two been listening to too many of the same sermans every sunday?

Jlay and Dave - you both write beautiful and compelling arguments, so much so that i do believe my beliefs surrounding God are distorted and i could be wrong about his existence. But there is no way to prove/disprove his existence without following blindly.
I am sorry i cannot be a sheep, in my opinion there are too many unanswered questions and i cannot blindly believe, no matter how much i would want to believe in this magnificent being in the sky looking over me. It would be wonderful, but i dont buy it (yet!).
My feeling is, you believe in God because there are no definitive answers as to why we exist, to create such a spectacular being which is the answer to EVERYTHING, again suggests lack of knowledge and in my opinion is ignorant, worse than saying ' i do not know the answer'.
Look at the Greek gods for example, look how these perceptions have changed over the years due to the advancements of knowledge.

Life preserver... - why do i HAVE to be saved by God? I am not a murderer, rapist, thief etc etc, i lead a good and moral life yet this is still not enough for your god, i have to commit myself to him? WHY? Why does God need this gratification from me?
To quote you...
'Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. It's a mistake is to assume that people will be condemned for their ignorance. I'm confident that no "good" person will end up in Hell.'
- So why do we have to belive in your god (and not the jewish/muslim god) if no good person will end up in hell.
Surely u can see my point here?

Jlay - i am not satisifed by your answers you give regards to the devils existence. God cannot be all loving and powerful if such a force exists? - please look at my earlier arguments.

Unfortunately, i am not convinced without a doubt that God exists and my mind refuses to over look such strong tangible evidence provided by science in terms of evolution et al, which religion outright ignores/denies (or in cases adjusts its belief system to account for it, depending on the 'different sects').

Guys - do you believe in evolution? How does this undeniable FACT (depsite it being called a thoery) fit into relgion.
Jlay - can i ask why you believe in God and how you know for certain you are correct?

I will sit on the fence with my agnostic beliefs as i do not know the answers, as does anyone.

Wazatron,

You say you are a good moral person so let me ask you a few questions:

Have you ever told a lie?

Have you ever made any demands on anyone?

Ever falsely accused anyone?

Have you ever looked at another human being and lusted in your thoughts in a sexual way?
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#43

Post by CallMeDave » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:55 am

B. W. wrote:
wazatron wrote:Morning!
More concrete evidence for God? Or have you two been listening to too many of the same sermans every sunday?

Jlay and Dave - you both write beautiful and compelling arguments, so much so that i do believe my beliefs surrounding God are distorted and i could be wrong about his existence. But there is no way to prove/disprove his existence without following blindly.
I am sorry i cannot be a sheep, in my opinion there are too many unanswered questions and i cannot blindly believe, no matter how much i would want to believe in this magnificent being in the sky looking over me. It would be wonderful, but i dont buy it (yet!).
My feeling is, you believe in God because there are no definitive answers as to why we exist, to create such a spectacular being which is the answer to EVERYTHING, again suggests lack of knowledge and in my opinion is ignorant, worse than saying ' i do not know the answer'.
Look at the Greek gods for example, look how these perceptions have changed over the years due to the advancements of knowledge.

Life preserver... - why do i HAVE to be saved by God? I am not a murderer, rapist, thief etc etc, i lead a good and moral life yet this is still not enough for your god, i have to commit myself to him? WHY? Why does God need this gratification from me?
To quote you...
'Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. It's a mistake is to assume that people will be condemned for their ignorance. I'm confident that no "good" person will end up in Hell.'
- So why do we have to belive in your god (and not the jewish/muslim god) if no good person will end up in hell.
Surely u can see my point here?

Jlay - i am not satisifed by your answers you give regards to the devils existence. God cannot be all loving and powerful if such a force exists? - please look at my earlier arguments.

Unfortunately, i am not convinced without a doubt that God exists and my mind refuses to over look such strong tangible evidence provided by science in terms of evolution et al, which religion outright ignores/denies (or in cases adjusts its belief system to account for it, depending on the 'different sects').

Guys - do you believe in evolution? How does this undeniable FACT (depsite it being called a thoery) fit into relgion.
Jlay - can i ask why you believe in God and how you know for certain you are correct?

I will sit on the fence with my agnostic beliefs as i do not know the answers, as does anyone.

Wazatron,

You say you are a good moral person so let me ask you a few questions:

Have you ever told a lie?

Have you ever made any demands on anyone?

Ever falsely accused anyone?

Have you ever looked at another human being and lusted in your thoughts in a sexual way?
-
-
-

Jesus came to die for nothing and was a Fraud IF we can merit our own way to God by 'being good' and having never murdered anyone. The fact is, that we are ALL self centered at the core of our beings .. to the point of being depraved. Jesus is your Eternal Life Preserver in case you ever want to change your mind and be completely forgiven of your many many sins . If youre not sure that your a Sinner, I can help you understand that you are like the rest of humanity.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#44

Post by wazatron » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:32 am

B.W WROTE.
Wazatron,
You say you are a good moral person so let me ask you a few questions:
Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever made any demands on anyone?
Ever falsely accused anyone?
Have you ever looked at another human being and lusted in your thoughts in a sexual way?


I CAN HONESTLY ANSWER YES TO ALL THE ABOVE. ESCPECIALLY THE LAST ONE. good luck humanity.

B.W - a small question for you:
Has god ever KILLED anyone? Has God ever made demands of anyone?
big difference between a lie and the total innahalition of the planet (flood)!!
But thats OK because hes god and has his own rules. PLEASE!!!! PAH.

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Re: Who gets into Heaven?

#45

Post by wrain62 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:38 am

wazatron wrote:B.W - a small question for you:
Has god ever KILLED anyone? Has God ever made demands of anyone?
big difference between a lie and the total innahalition of the planet (flood)!!
But thats OK because hes god and has his own rules. PLEASE!!!! PAH.
:ebiggrin:
If We play God then it is a sin.
But if God plays God then it is a sin?
This superficial duoble standard is just that.
Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.

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